The powerful truth in this response is just breath-taking (I think I did actually hold my breath whilst reading the paragraph about Nietzsche, in a bid to memorise every word of wisdom). There is also such kindness, and humour, in your advice - which I think anyone who’s in any kind of relationship can use.
This is so helpful. I love that idea that a good relationship should have seven bids for attention. It is all about attention, and noticing. Stopping, listening, seeing. But remaining true to yourself at the same time. It's not easy! I really love how you weave in thinkers you've been inspired by. It helps my own thinking and writing - as I love thinking and writing about these things too. Thank you. Always an inspiration.
We've been married for 47 years and have always done some things separately and some together or what would we talk about and how would we cope if one of us died? I go life drawing, run occasional sketching holidays, (though I'm retired), go on art workshops or drawing with other artists. He goes to a writing group, writes plays and pantomimes, attends a drama group (I'm also interested in drama and have been in amateur plays some of which he has written). We also do a lot together, walking, visiting national trust properties and gardens, eating out, watching some films or series together and some apart. When he swims in the sea of the coast of N Wales where we live I read a book, no problem, then we walk to the cafe for coffee so I totally agree with you Philippa.
Absolutely! And what I notice from your reply is that you’ve each got a life and probably not a complete overlap of friend groups, same for us and I think this will make it easier when one of us dies. And it is “when” and not “if”.
I think we've always been very aware of that as my husband is ten years older than me though probably fitter! Yes we have some joint friends and some separate, healthy balance I think.
Just yesterday I waved my husband off on one of his annual sailing trips, in which he and a group of enthusiasts spend a week or more in extreme discomfort in a cramped 80 year old yacht. To me it sounds like the worst sort of camping, but with added seasickness, and you couldn't pay me to go. He loves it and comes back looking younger and happier. I miss him but would never stop him going, and he misses me but, crucially, HE DOES NOT MIND ME NOT COMING WITH HIM. Meanwhile I take the opportunity to visit places that don't interest him and to cook with aubergines (which he hates) and gluten (which hates him). When travelling together we choose holiday destinations which have both scuba diving for him and pleasant beaches for me where I can sit under a tree and read a book. We do enjoy lots of the same things and go on daytrips together most weekends, but our interests are an overlapping Venn diagram, not a closed circle.
Absolutely this! My husband loves going to gigs of, frankly, noise and he loves shellfish. I prefer quiet and for my food not to clank, but I wouldn't dream of stopping him doing these things. Why would I have a problem with the man I love doing the things HE loves?!
Oh, 💯 yes! Right down to the lycra cycle shorts ( though for my love, not the Tour de France but lone mountain biking in Scotland). Me? I'm doing yoga in the attic...
And I came across Gottman last year in therapy, and was much struck by the concept of 'bids for connection', which really helped explain parts of my personality I hadn't understood before.
I really like your explanation of our need to be witnessed, seen in our interests, rather than share everything and expect to be together every minute of our long lives.
Thank you for your humanity and sanity in this increasingly cruel and insane world
I’m so glad I don’t do your job, because you have patience and understanding beyond anything I could ever achieve. You’re so, so kind. My answer to this man would be ‘Did you not talk about each other’s passions, likes, and dislikes before you got married? Did you not know anything about her? Or did you expect that, after the wedding, she’d change all her interests to align with yours?’ Blimey, did they meet on Married at First Sight?? Ugh.
This is such a compassionate reply that speaks to my personal truth in a long, secure marriage. There are many elements of our lives that we do not do together, but the reasons why we do them make us happy for each other. I hope your reader can reach out and make this change. Relationships where there is an expectation of all together, all the time are scary and isolating. You need to know who you are and respect who the other is and be able to function as independent adults. There's so much richness in that.
My single piece of advice to any young couple I know who are planning on getting married (often met with quizzical or even dismissive response) is: the secret of happiness is not trying to CHANGE the other person. If they love golf and you don’t, don’t push them to give up golf (or imagine it will ‘magically’ happen). If you don’t love & accept them for who they are (and allow them to be that thing), unhappiness lies ahead. There… My sixpencewirth…
I love your response Philippa. This issue resonates deeply with me as I am also a nature lover. Hiking and exploring wild places is essential to my well being. It's part of my core.
I am currently single and my last 2 relationships were with people who shared my passion.
I often wonder though, would I even get involved with someone who doesn't share this joy with me as it's so fundamental to who I am. I cannot understand why anyone would want to close curtains and watch TV rather than experience what is real in our beautiful world. This perhaps makes me judgemental but I don't think I'd be able to reconcile this difference, not being able to share with a partner one of my strongest core values. I feel that it would not be a meeting of minds to be with someone who did not also appreciate nature’s beauty. Very curious about this 🤔
Yes that's potentially right. I do consider it a deal breaker therefore best not get involved. I only worry that I may be closing myself off to other good things if I'm so dogmatic about this...? It's a dilemma.
Yes, I do think this could be subtly different from 'different hobbies' and more about a frustration about someone who is not 'engaging with life' (from his perspective) or (it feels) doesn't have any conversation to offer. I have heard this frustration from quite a number of people about their partners and in some it has led to the end of the relationship. I have also had it said to me explicitly by someone with an interest (or many interests) that they are free to pursue them because they don't get on with their partner! I've had people saying they are taking different holidays because of childcare issues.... and then the relationship is over. Sometimes what strengthens one relationship is either a demonstration of the fault lines or a cause of them in another.
That's why not knowing what they do share feels like we have less than half the story.
I've been happily married 30+ years and we have lots of different interests as well as many shared ones. But, like you, a love of nature is non negotiable for me, it's fundamental to who I am and I can't imagine being in love with someone who sat in the car when there's a beautiful view; the difference between us would just be too great.
Ooh this is interesting! (Partly as I heard a couple of days ago that a friend of a friend will be issuing an ultimatum to her husband for not dissimilar reasons)
The point about needing to be interested in one another being more important than being interested in all the same things seems highly relevant. There is as Philippa says an apparent lack of interest in *what* book and *what* screen viewing she's doing (by which I do not mean that there's some reading and some watching that's OK and some that isn't) There are documentaries on Netflix about the natural world (and he says he's been a watcher of that type of programme himself - is this something they could do together?), which on the face of it could be very easily addressed.
However, I do wonder if there isn't something rather too performative in what the wife is doing, that, or perhaps showing not a lack of interest but a fearfulness of something, the nebulous 'out there' (odd not to get out and take a glance and stretch a bit, assuming she is physically able, even if she gets straight back into the car - frankly this woman sounds at risk of Vitamin D deficiency...) His interest may be rejected, it may feel intrusive, it may feel judgmental (ie Why? rather than What?)... and of course it may not be taken as genuine. It has to be done though.
I am wondering about the antecedents - because it does seem to be a common scenario that someone will appear to engage early in the relationship and then give up and perhaps even express an antipathy. It might even be something that individual is prepared to do if friends want to do it, but won't do it with a partner. This can give rise to a slight feeling of having been lied to or betrayed even if in itself the fact they are not sharing it in the here and now isn't a big deal.
I do think that people vary in how much they want to share activities with a partner. The point about it not necessarily having to be your partner for everything, and finding others is valid - but the lack/loss/regret may remain, even if it is something we have to suck up. We worry a lot more about relationships where one partner objects to the other doing things without them. I'd be interested in knowing more about what the 'some things' are that they do share - and they were driving in the mountains together and it doesn't sound as though she was objecting to him stopping.
Just possibly she might actually enjoy similar things if given the space to do so in her own way - perhaps the experience is being overegged for her by too many words, too much faffing to get a good shot? He might be trying too hard.
I knew a couple once, they'd been married for over thirty years, and I asked her - what's your secret? She said - separate bedrooms, separate holidays. He snores and I kick around in bed at night, I like beaches, he likes hiking.
I found this so inspiring to the point that I often mention it to clients as a fantastic example of togetherness in difference. Many couples would see this as a red flag and either split or run to a therapist (or worse still, live in a state of resentment). But this couple didn't try to be the same, they loved and respected each other enough to co-exist with different needs without feeling threatened.
The powerful truth in this response is just breath-taking (I think I did actually hold my breath whilst reading the paragraph about Nietzsche, in a bid to memorise every word of wisdom). There is also such kindness, and humour, in your advice - which I think anyone who’s in any kind of relationship can use.
This is so helpful. I love that idea that a good relationship should have seven bids for attention. It is all about attention, and noticing. Stopping, listening, seeing. But remaining true to yourself at the same time. It's not easy! I really love how you weave in thinkers you've been inspired by. It helps my own thinking and writing - as I love thinking and writing about these things too. Thank you. Always an inspiration.
We've been married for 47 years and have always done some things separately and some together or what would we talk about and how would we cope if one of us died? I go life drawing, run occasional sketching holidays, (though I'm retired), go on art workshops or drawing with other artists. He goes to a writing group, writes plays and pantomimes, attends a drama group (I'm also interested in drama and have been in amateur plays some of which he has written). We also do a lot together, walking, visiting national trust properties and gardens, eating out, watching some films or series together and some apart. When he swims in the sea of the coast of N Wales where we live I read a book, no problem, then we walk to the cafe for coffee so I totally agree with you Philippa.
Absolutely! And what I notice from your reply is that you’ve each got a life and probably not a complete overlap of friend groups, same for us and I think this will make it easier when one of us dies. And it is “when” and not “if”.
I think we've always been very aware of that as my husband is ten years older than me though probably fitter! Yes we have some joint friends and some separate, healthy balance I think.
Just yesterday I waved my husband off on one of his annual sailing trips, in which he and a group of enthusiasts spend a week or more in extreme discomfort in a cramped 80 year old yacht. To me it sounds like the worst sort of camping, but with added seasickness, and you couldn't pay me to go. He loves it and comes back looking younger and happier. I miss him but would never stop him going, and he misses me but, crucially, HE DOES NOT MIND ME NOT COMING WITH HIM. Meanwhile I take the opportunity to visit places that don't interest him and to cook with aubergines (which he hates) and gluten (which hates him). When travelling together we choose holiday destinations which have both scuba diving for him and pleasant beaches for me where I can sit under a tree and read a book. We do enjoy lots of the same things and go on daytrips together most weekends, but our interests are an overlapping Venn diagram, not a closed circle.
We've been married 39 years.
Absolutely this! My husband loves going to gigs of, frankly, noise and he loves shellfish. I prefer quiet and for my food not to clank, but I wouldn't dream of stopping him doing these things. Why would I have a problem with the man I love doing the things HE loves?!
Precisely! (Yes gigs are another thing... fortunately he is happy to go on his own and sit among like-minded strangers who share his passion).
Beautifully measured response, as ever. Honestly, the sooner Philippa is in charge of everything, the better. 😉😊
Oh, 💯 yes! Right down to the lycra cycle shorts ( though for my love, not the Tour de France but lone mountain biking in Scotland). Me? I'm doing yoga in the attic...
And I came across Gottman last year in therapy, and was much struck by the concept of 'bids for connection', which really helped explain parts of my personality I hadn't understood before.
I really like your explanation of our need to be witnessed, seen in our interests, rather than share everything and expect to be together every minute of our long lives.
Thank you for your humanity and sanity in this increasingly cruel and insane world
Just beautiful. Something for all of us
I’m so glad I don’t do your job, because you have patience and understanding beyond anything I could ever achieve. You’re so, so kind. My answer to this man would be ‘Did you not talk about each other’s passions, likes, and dislikes before you got married? Did you not know anything about her? Or did you expect that, after the wedding, she’d change all her interests to align with yours?’ Blimey, did they meet on Married at First Sight?? Ugh.
Very helpful. The part about being seen is so true
This is such a compassionate reply that speaks to my personal truth in a long, secure marriage. There are many elements of our lives that we do not do together, but the reasons why we do them make us happy for each other. I hope your reader can reach out and make this change. Relationships where there is an expectation of all together, all the time are scary and isolating. You need to know who you are and respect who the other is and be able to function as independent adults. There's so much richness in that.
So wise, so helpful, Philippa. I am currently with my tribe, and talking in dialect, and my husband is in the sofa watching Formula One.
Ooooh! what dialect?
Jeweller’s dialect.
The dialect of jewellers
My single piece of advice to any young couple I know who are planning on getting married (often met with quizzical or even dismissive response) is: the secret of happiness is not trying to CHANGE the other person. If they love golf and you don’t, don’t push them to give up golf (or imagine it will ‘magically’ happen). If you don’t love & accept them for who they are (and allow them to be that thing), unhappiness lies ahead. There… My sixpencewirth…
Once again such wisdom in this reply. Phillipa thank you.
I love your response Philippa. This issue resonates deeply with me as I am also a nature lover. Hiking and exploring wild places is essential to my well being. It's part of my core.
I am currently single and my last 2 relationships were with people who shared my passion.
I often wonder though, would I even get involved with someone who doesn't share this joy with me as it's so fundamental to who I am. I cannot understand why anyone would want to close curtains and watch TV rather than experience what is real in our beautiful world. This perhaps makes me judgemental but I don't think I'd be able to reconcile this difference, not being able to share with a partner one of my strongest core values. I feel that it would not be a meeting of minds to be with someone who did not also appreciate nature’s beauty. Very curious about this 🤔
But why would you marry such a difference in the first place I’d that’s how you feel?
Yes that's potentially right. I do consider it a deal breaker therefore best not get involved. I only worry that I may be closing myself off to other good things if I'm so dogmatic about this...? It's a dilemma.
Yes, I do think this could be subtly different from 'different hobbies' and more about a frustration about someone who is not 'engaging with life' (from his perspective) or (it feels) doesn't have any conversation to offer. I have heard this frustration from quite a number of people about their partners and in some it has led to the end of the relationship. I have also had it said to me explicitly by someone with an interest (or many interests) that they are free to pursue them because they don't get on with their partner! I've had people saying they are taking different holidays because of childcare issues.... and then the relationship is over. Sometimes what strengthens one relationship is either a demonstration of the fault lines or a cause of them in another.
That's why not knowing what they do share feels like we have less than half the story.
I've been happily married 30+ years and we have lots of different interests as well as many shared ones. But, like you, a love of nature is non negotiable for me, it's fundamental to who I am and I can't imagine being in love with someone who sat in the car when there's a beautiful view; the difference between us would just be too great.
Ooh this is interesting! (Partly as I heard a couple of days ago that a friend of a friend will be issuing an ultimatum to her husband for not dissimilar reasons)
The point about needing to be interested in one another being more important than being interested in all the same things seems highly relevant. There is as Philippa says an apparent lack of interest in *what* book and *what* screen viewing she's doing (by which I do not mean that there's some reading and some watching that's OK and some that isn't) There are documentaries on Netflix about the natural world (and he says he's been a watcher of that type of programme himself - is this something they could do together?), which on the face of it could be very easily addressed.
However, I do wonder if there isn't something rather too performative in what the wife is doing, that, or perhaps showing not a lack of interest but a fearfulness of something, the nebulous 'out there' (odd not to get out and take a glance and stretch a bit, assuming she is physically able, even if she gets straight back into the car - frankly this woman sounds at risk of Vitamin D deficiency...) His interest may be rejected, it may feel intrusive, it may feel judgmental (ie Why? rather than What?)... and of course it may not be taken as genuine. It has to be done though.
I am wondering about the antecedents - because it does seem to be a common scenario that someone will appear to engage early in the relationship and then give up and perhaps even express an antipathy. It might even be something that individual is prepared to do if friends want to do it, but won't do it with a partner. This can give rise to a slight feeling of having been lied to or betrayed even if in itself the fact they are not sharing it in the here and now isn't a big deal.
I do think that people vary in how much they want to share activities with a partner. The point about it not necessarily having to be your partner for everything, and finding others is valid - but the lack/loss/regret may remain, even if it is something we have to suck up. We worry a lot more about relationships where one partner objects to the other doing things without them. I'd be interested in knowing more about what the 'some things' are that they do share - and they were driving in the mountains together and it doesn't sound as though she was objecting to him stopping.
Just possibly she might actually enjoy similar things if given the space to do so in her own way - perhaps the experience is being overegged for her by too many words, too much faffing to get a good shot? He might be trying too hard.
I knew a couple once, they'd been married for over thirty years, and I asked her - what's your secret? She said - separate bedrooms, separate holidays. He snores and I kick around in bed at night, I like beaches, he likes hiking.
I found this so inspiring to the point that I often mention it to clients as a fantastic example of togetherness in difference. Many couples would see this as a red flag and either split or run to a therapist (or worse still, live in a state of resentment). But this couple didn't try to be the same, they loved and respected each other enough to co-exist with different needs without feeling threatened.
I think I know who you mean. Are they still together?