I appreciate reading your replies Philipa even when the problems don't seem to match something in my own life. I feel I can soak up some wisdom about not making assumptions and stretching to understand the other person's point of view. Thank you
Some relationships reach a stage of being toxic to both parties. This is one of them. For different reasons, both partners would now be better off without the other. As Philippa says, once violence occurs it becomes far more likely despite the initial remorse. In addition, the author says "No one will listen to what I have been through these past few years what with her drinking and self inflicted problems." Whichever way you cut this, it's no basis for a healthy relationship from either point of view. And I'm NOT condoning violence in any form - the opposite.
Right - if he’s so horrified that her drinking drove him to that irrational state (giving him the overwhelming benefit of the doubt), why would he want to be in that kind of relationship?
I’m open to the possibility that I expressed myself so incredibly poorly that you reasonably read me as patronizing and dismissive. That was in no way the intent - I agreed with you. I thought you made a good point, and (perhaps misguidedly) responded by expressing my own phrasing of it.
I apologize that you read me as dismissive. But it was in no way meant that way, and perhaps it is worth reconsidering your reliance on your own ability to discern tone from a person’s text.
A dismissive, patronising response to my original point tends to get a similarly dismissive reply. Have you got anything to add to my original note or a related point to discuss or suggestion? Or are you so easily convinced I'm in the 'wrong' - bearing in mind the point of Substack is open writing and discussion not Twitter type responses.
I got the impression Nina was agreeing with you, and maybe trying to add to / enhance your point. It didn't come over as dismissive or patronising to me at all, so maybe that's why Lo wrote what they did. Just an observation - sometimes the written word is 'heard' differently.
Thanks. As you say, things can be heard differently, and maybe this was the case. I'd have to say though, starting a comment with 'Right' doesn't usually come across as 'I agree'. But, happy to be corrected. I also didn't really understand the point being made and how it related to mine, did you?
i am in a relationship where violence happened and got explained away or minimized and then normalized through that. There's gaslighting as to the exact timing and severity, always argued through with precision and exactitude but not in regards to my feelings, because they can't be measured. as to say i felt disproportionately hurt for such a small offense. i still am trying to get away, it's extremely difficult to get out of these pervasive and subtle relationship situations Especially when there's a culture of silence and support from the entire social circle to keep everything snuggly under the rug. there's financial exploitation too. it's as knotted and convoluted as can get and all the while the one who is doing it thinking he's not perpetrating and just wants everyone's good. my resolve is to never get into a relationship model like this again. Monogamous straight marriages are social relics of patriarchal domination, our entire culture of dating and loving and family based on it is fraught with deeply rooted hierarchical thinking (and feeling).
Sometimes hard truths are the only response. I hope the woman concerned is receiving love and support. Thank you Philippa for taking the time to redirect this person. 🤍
Having just spent a 2 week holiday with my alcoholic sister, I can semi-sympathise. My sister turns very nasty and is a verbal bully. She can’t remember a thing about it in the morning - she thinks we’ve had a great night! It breaks my heart that I see a 60 year old woman I deeply love act so horrible!
Thanks for clarifying. Yes, with hindsight I probably should have read your reply again and thought about it a bit more before responding. I usually do. Which sounds a bit feeble in the context of Philippa's posts, and people's interest in learning from them. And in the spirit of reflecting - thanks to Joanna for mediating.
Thank you for your response. I was taken aback by your original response and was not going to reply, but was encouraged to do so by Joanna’s response. I’m happy to have come to a better understanding.
As so happens when I really should be sleeping, I was trying to work out last night how I had missed the mark. It hadn’t occurred to me that “right” comes across as confrontational or sarcastic. In UK/South African/Australian English, it functions more as a conversational transition where you acknowledge the other person’s words before responding. I have sufficient US exposure to pay attention to more obvious vernacular differences, but the automatic coding of “right” as dismissive is not one I have given any thought to before. I guess it’s a good reminder to me to work harder to leave my verbal tics out of written text.
(Of course, you might not be American either, but I think it’s probably fair to say that the vernacular of internet discussion skews strongly to US English.)
“He was drunk, again, and assaulted me, grabbing my hands and trying to prise my phone out of my hands. Verbal pleas failed as they always did, and I finally found the courage to defend myself.”
Additionally, it was not he who was drunk, but she. I do not intend this in a sexist way (in the sense that I do not believe men to be more valuable or capable than women), but it is a fact that men have a greater physical strength then women. And in this case, with his partner being significantly older than him and likely in declining physical condition, it is strange to me to think that this violent response "in defense of his phone" is acceptable.
I don't think many people would view a 50-second attack as a proportionate response to someone attempting to get a phone from you, whether you switch the gender or not, but interesting to read how differently people view the OP.
Reactive violence is the explanation used in several recent high-profile cases of wives who have murdered their abusive husbands.
The incel/manosphere community had the same reaction as yourself but I think it both makes sense of their actions and casts doubt on the expert referenced in the article who says violence is always a “decision making process.”
I agree, Martin. My other thought may be a bit off topic but I was struck by him saying’no-one will listen to me’, when he’s been offered individual counselling or he could have joined a self help group like Al-Anon and become aware of rescuer-victim dynamics and then maybe it would not have happened in the first place!
I appreciate reading your replies Philipa even when the problems don't seem to match something in my own life. I feel I can soak up some wisdom about not making assumptions and stretching to understand the other person's point of view. Thank you
Thank YOU
I am left wondering exactly why she was trying to "wrestle the phone" from his hands... & why this generated such an extreme response from him?
I wondered that too.
Some relationships reach a stage of being toxic to both parties. This is one of them. For different reasons, both partners would now be better off without the other. As Philippa says, once violence occurs it becomes far more likely despite the initial remorse. In addition, the author says "No one will listen to what I have been through these past few years what with her drinking and self inflicted problems." Whichever way you cut this, it's no basis for a healthy relationship from either point of view. And I'm NOT condoning violence in any form - the opposite.
Right - if he’s so horrified that her drinking drove him to that irrational state (giving him the overwhelming benefit of the doubt), why would he want to be in that kind of relationship?
Maybe read what I wrote again, and give it a bit more thought
I’m open to the possibility that I expressed myself so incredibly poorly that you reasonably read me as patronizing and dismissive. That was in no way the intent - I agreed with you. I thought you made a good point, and (perhaps misguidedly) responded by expressing my own phrasing of it.
I apologize that you read me as dismissive. But it was in no way meant that way, and perhaps it is worth reconsidering your reliance on your own ability to discern tone from a person’s text.
Managed to post my reply below by mistake
Maybe give your response a bit more thought and adjust the patronising tone?
A dismissive, patronising response to my original point tends to get a similarly dismissive reply. Have you got anything to add to my original note or a related point to discuss or suggestion? Or are you so easily convinced I'm in the 'wrong' - bearing in mind the point of Substack is open writing and discussion not Twitter type responses.
I got the impression Nina was agreeing with you, and maybe trying to add to / enhance your point. It didn't come over as dismissive or patronising to me at all, so maybe that's why Lo wrote what they did. Just an observation - sometimes the written word is 'heard' differently.
Thanks. As you say, things can be heard differently, and maybe this was the case. I'd have to say though, starting a comment with 'Right' doesn't usually come across as 'I agree'. But, happy to be corrected. I also didn't really understand the point being made and how it related to mine, did you?
i am in a relationship where violence happened and got explained away or minimized and then normalized through that. There's gaslighting as to the exact timing and severity, always argued through with precision and exactitude but not in regards to my feelings, because they can't be measured. as to say i felt disproportionately hurt for such a small offense. i still am trying to get away, it's extremely difficult to get out of these pervasive and subtle relationship situations Especially when there's a culture of silence and support from the entire social circle to keep everything snuggly under the rug. there's financial exploitation too. it's as knotted and convoluted as can get and all the while the one who is doing it thinking he's not perpetrating and just wants everyone's good. my resolve is to never get into a relationship model like this again. Monogamous straight marriages are social relics of patriarchal domination, our entire culture of dating and loving and family based on it is fraught with deeply rooted hierarchical thinking (and feeling).
50 seconds is an odd time . Time enough for 50 hits . This is GBH?
I love your point about humanising the victim, rescuer and persecutor roles, Philippa. Thanks for another illuminating read.
Sometimes hard truths are the only response. I hope the woman concerned is receiving love and support. Thank you Philippa for taking the time to redirect this person. 🤍
Having just spent a 2 week holiday with my alcoholic sister, I can semi-sympathise. My sister turns very nasty and is a verbal bully. She can’t remember a thing about it in the morning - she thinks we’ve had a great night! It breaks my heart that I see a 60 year old woman I deeply love act so horrible!
Thanks for clarifying. Yes, with hindsight I probably should have read your reply again and thought about it a bit more before responding. I usually do. Which sounds a bit feeble in the context of Philippa's posts, and people's interest in learning from them. And in the spirit of reflecting - thanks to Joanna for mediating.
Thank you for your response. I was taken aback by your original response and was not going to reply, but was encouraged to do so by Joanna’s response. I’m happy to have come to a better understanding.
As so happens when I really should be sleeping, I was trying to work out last night how I had missed the mark. It hadn’t occurred to me that “right” comes across as confrontational or sarcastic. In UK/South African/Australian English, it functions more as a conversational transition where you acknowledge the other person’s words before responding. I have sufficient US exposure to pay attention to more obvious vernacular differences, but the automatic coding of “right” as dismissive is not one I have given any thought to before. I guess it’s a good reminder to me to work harder to leave my verbal tics out of written text.
(Of course, you might not be American either, but I think it’s probably fair to say that the vernacular of internet discussion skews strongly to US English.)
I am in awe of how you so eloquently call people out, I’m often left wondering what sort of response did the writer actually expect…?
You can kill a person in 5 seconds
Reframe:
“He was drunk, again, and assaulted me, grabbing my hands and trying to prise my phone out of my hands. Verbal pleas failed as they always did, and I finally found the courage to defend myself.”
Additionally, it was not he who was drunk, but she. I do not intend this in a sexist way (in the sense that I do not believe men to be more valuable or capable than women), but it is a fact that men have a greater physical strength then women. And in this case, with his partner being significantly older than him and likely in declining physical condition, it is strange to me to think that this violent response "in defense of his phone" is acceptable.
I don't think many people would view a 50-second attack as a proportionate response to someone attempting to get a phone from you, whether you switch the gender or not, but interesting to read how differently people view the OP.
Reactive violence is a well-documented phenomena and an understandable response to both sustained alcohol, verbal and physical abuse.
All of which are explicitly (and implicitly) described in the writer’s question.
As in ‘Now look what you made me do?’
Reactive violence is the explanation used in several recent high-profile cases of wives who have murdered their abusive husbands.
The incel/manosphere community had the same reaction as yourself but I think it both makes sense of their actions and casts doubt on the expert referenced in the article who says violence is always a “decision making process.”
I agree, Martin. My other thought may be a bit off topic but I was struck by him saying’no-one will listen to me’, when he’s been offered individual counselling or he could have joined a self help group like Al-Anon and become aware of rescuer-victim dynamics and then maybe it would not have happened in the first place!
Hi, yes, I'm aware of the phenomenon. I think Philippa's response still stands; they should not be together, it's dangerous for both of them.
Totally agree. I really admire your columns Philippa but the AI images are very off-putting.
Wondered the same thing.
They are quite unsettling and distracting