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Philippa Perry's avatar

There’s a sliding scale of embarrassment, guilt, shame and humiliation - all subtly different - shame is often the one that brings people to therapy👇

Jane Grey's avatar

Philippa has kindly reminded us all of something she has said many times before. Because it is SO worth repeating.

OBSERVE it, don't BE it.

I keep this mantra in my head because if you can do it, you will create a vital space/gap in your head. When you observe your own thoughts, it frees you from a process that will probably not serve you, will keep you fixed and ON THE SPOT. You are CURIOUS about the way you are thinking, not trapped by it. The gap opens up, inviting you to MOVE through it and realise yoy potential for CHANGE and FORWARD MOTION.

Jane Grey's avatar

Thanks! And thanks to Philippa. of course.

Jessica Zimbalatti's avatar

Excellent reply as always! Also - what I have observed among people who have been "just" smacked as children - myself included - is that it's a terrific way to train them to get comfortable with shame. I felt (and feel) absolute bafflement about being smacked as a child; emotionally, it was a lot easier for me as a child to assume I should be feeling more ashamed than I was feeling than to imagine an adult I loved had hit me for a bad reason.

Jane Grey's avatar

Continuing the smacking thread, which clearly deserves an entire section to itself, I can only remember being smacked once 60-odd years ago, and the memory has never left me. I'm still smarting. Mum told me and my brother not to cross the big road at the edge of the village, but we did. She smacked us both hard across the back of the legs. It stings your legs but it also somehow makes you hate yourself for what you've done, it crushes you, and that's not how you should make any child feel about themselves.

I'm curious to know why she chose smacking as a way to "correct" our behaviour. Is this kind of "punishment" really necessary or even helpful? It's so black and white, all or nothing, and it teaches the child NOTHING. I'm guessing she learned this leg-smacking thing from her parents as a way of expressing emotion. So, nothing to do with the child per se, but from fear (of us being knocked down by a car) or anger (at rules being broken).

Either way, in my book, smacking children is totally unacceptable. It is an expression of emotion through violence.

When I look at our world in tatters, I just want to know WHY?

I really do think that the answer is much simpler and closer to home than we think.

This is not a blame game, it's all about trying to understand. As I see it, if how we are parented sets the pattern of our lives, then the way we treat ourselves and each other is down to parenting. I couldn't possibly pinpoint the moment in history when parenting skills started on the downward slide (a million factors involved), but I do think that helping parents in every possible way to bring up their children to be happy kids/happy adults is a number one priority.

I've said b4 that I have no kids of my own, wish I'd felt settled enough to have even just one, but I do love kids and I want the best for them.

And that starts with supporting parents.

THE END

Sarah’s space's avatar

Yes, smacking needs its own thread, and can take years to understand the impact it has had on us. The OW should not underestimate this and be gentle on herself. I was smacked alot as a child by my mother and bullied by my father. I have an inherent sense of wrongness and never understood why it seems so ingrained in my bones. My adult life has been full of poor choices. I am so grateful to read your suggestion of why a parent has been physically violent. I have no recollection of what I’d done wrong,but have never forgotten at the age of about 6, being held against the banisters with one hand, whilst she slapped me hard on my legs with the other, until her hand print showed. I’m 59 and still remember this. I was scared the marks would last forever and how I might hide them. I believed my friend’s mum would tell me off for making my mother angry, and they would realise I was the most awful awful child in the whole world. It has left a legacy of shame and relational challenges. I appease, overstretch myself to please others or run from situations where I think people are being aggressive. I tend to believe I am the cause of the someone’s bad mood. Never once have I considered the violence was my mother’s abhorent way of expressing HER emotions (of which I have no real idea what they were, other than perhaps rage at her struggles as a mum in an unhappy marriage). All I heard was ‘you made me do it’. My relationship with my mother never recovered and her pattern of lashing out at me, when she is upset, has never changed. Sadly my brother is the same. Poor parenting has an awful effect and I wish we had better ways of helping parents do such a tough job, when often they are struggling themselves. Your comment has really has helped me to understand the mechanics, and how I was not to blame. Thank you.

Jane Grey's avatar

Sarah, I am touched by your reply and pleased that you found it helpful. Writing things down often helps me to know what I am thinking/feeling, and it looks like the process has been useful for you, too.

As always, respect to Philippa for creating this platform.

lynneandrew4's avatar

I can see that your mother was beside herself at the danger you may have put yourself in. She behaved irrationally, lashed out in her determination to make sure that you never repeated the felony. I think that’s excusable but you may have been traumatised by it. I committed a similar felony with my daughter when she was five years old and very ill. Her temperature was do high that she told me she could see a snake in her bedroom, but she refused all medication I had available to bring it down. I was beside myself and smacked her across the face. I immediately felt dreadful, cried and apologised. I still feel dreadful if I think if it but I forgive myself for the mistake. Rarely, my daughter mentions it and because it was a one-off and she is now a mother I think, I hope with all my heart, that she understands.

Jane Grey's avatar

This really brings it home to me how challenging being a parent can be. I've no idea how I would have handled being a parent myself. My heart goes out to you. Compassion only.

Laura's avatar

I smacked my son's hand when he was about 18 months because he was doing something possibly dangerous in the kitchen. He started crying and turned to me for comfort and I thought, wow, that's f--ed up and I never hit him again.

Oh wait, yes, I did, when he was 18. He couldn't graduate high school because he had cut too many gym classes, so he had to go to summer school to start college in the fall. He then cut summer school. I smacked him in the shoulder, I was so OVER his BS. They let him graduate anyway, probably because they were so sick of him, ha.

Jane Grey's avatar

Laura, the last line of Some Like It Hot, one of my favourite films, is:

"Nobody's perfect!"

I'm talking about the ideal scenario, easy for me to do when I haven't been pushed to my limit by my child ;-)

Laura's avatar

Oh, I don't feel a bit sorry about it. ha.

Alecia Stevens's avatar

This is so tender and a little bit heart-breaking. If I may offer an observation. (I am ahead of you in my 70's)...If you could consider who you might be or want to be 10 years from now, 20 years from now. As you look into the mirror then...I wonder....will you just feel more shame for treating yourself the way you are treating yourself now? Will you feel that you wish you could have given yourself , your 60s something self more tenderness, more grace? If so...do it now. Do it now. Give yourself tenderness and grace now. Pace. (in Italian..) And much love.

Cherry Coombe's avatar

A beautiful suggestion.

Charlotte Wright's avatar

This made me cry.

Very good point.

Alecia Stevens's avatar

Well, I am happy it touched you. We could all use a little of that advice, I guess.

Jo Bisseker Barr's avatar

I think there is something for every one of us in this letter, and reply.

As a therapist, I have seen how so often, clients feel compelled to use the space as a confessional, which is a very powerful dynamic. To unburden themselves of a painful story, with a professional as witness, and to be given permission by this 'other' (who has weight, and wisdom!) to shed their weighty burdens, and move onwards.

In this writer's letter, I see this work already being done; the key is self-awareness. Many people pass through life damaged from their upbringing, but blissfully unaware, and they repeat patterns that cause pain, none the wiser. This person has broken the chain, done the work, grown and changed. Now, they just need to give themselves permission to let go in their mind!

We are all flawed humans. I could rake up shameful actions from the past, as could we all.

Victoria's avatar

In my personal experience people who are horribly tied up in the shame cycle are also very bad at being accountable for their actions because the focus becomes how bad they feel about themselves and what they’ve done and you end up comforting them, or just completely unsatisfied by the interaction. With that said, the part about her parents and being smacked as a child rang true with people I’ve known who have been stuck in this cycle. It’s dreadful, and I wish it were different. I had an ex who was unable to face any pain he had caused people—never intentionally. He was a tall, strong, beautiful man who would physically recoil at the idea of having caused pain to someone he cared about. He told me many years down the line that he always felt like there was just something wrong with him, but he didn’t know what. He also told me that as a child he was very ‘emotional’ and would be smacked when he cried. He never quite saw the link. It was too easy to dismiss this as something that happens to lots of people (especially of his generation maybe). I loved him dearly, but he shied away from love as well, it was just too much for him to be seen when behind the armour he really didn’t like himself. And all that because he wasn’t protected as a child. Heartbreaking.

Deb Lyttelton's avatar

As ever, I love the compassion in your replies. I have two things to add:

- shame isolates us, if you can find a way to share the feeling with someone else: therapist, friend, partner, etc then somehow the power that it holds is dissipated. We all carry shame, it's an archetypal experience

- there is appropriate shame and toxic shame. The latter usually runs through families and we take it in from the moment we're born (and probably before that too). It is not our shame and should be returned to those who fed it to us. Every time a parent smacks us, for example, they are teaching us to be ashamed of who we are.

I recommend John Bradshaw's Healing the shame that binds you, which contains a wonderful chapter on toxic shame. Also, Forgiveness & other acts of love by Stephanie Dowrick is full of compassion for our human frailties.

dirtmother's avatar

I have a loved one who engages in similar rumination. Except that it is anyone who ever wronged them (sometimes anyone would recognise the wrong, sometimes not), and it doesn't end there.... there are vengeful abusive actions which sometimes have serious consequences. So - credit yourself for the direction in which you take your rumination. But vigilance (whichever way expressed), as Philippa says, is not moral repair.

Philippa's reply is superb, and, I think, speaks more widely to one of the particular challenges of our time: accountability and redemption and how we all negotiate the tension between these two. I am interested that you say that you 'quite rightly' lost several friends. Is that because you believe cutting off friends who have done something of which you disapprove is the right thing to do, you would have done the same in their place? We can all think of a particular, horrendous, scenario here where the vast majority would heartily agree.

But you can't cut yourself off, even though this is what you are trying to do, you have to live with what you have done, what you have not done, not 'comfortably' Feeling bad in the middle of the night (something that gets wished on many, and understandably so) is no use to anyone, almost a self-indulgence (though I am sure it doesn't feel like one and not a choice) unless it impels to action - to do better, to live a better life now and in the future. Shame is, I think, a little like anxiety: some anxiety shows a recognition of the importance of a situation and can promote necessary preparation, shame or the prospect of it can hold us back from actions or repeating actions which are genuinely not in our own or others' interests, it can bring us some humility and compassion.

Gavin Stewart's avatar

Accountability and redemption, such a very good point and so true 👍 Perhaps in this case that 'i deserve it' impulse could be turned into something useful too. I agree with Philippa's direction which to me, seems focused on rewiring one's thinking to produce relief. But perhaps some active atonement might work for the LW too. Could it be some of the wronged parties are ready to forgive if an olive branch was offered? In this particular case we have no idea really and the ruptures created might be too bad to fix. But, as a general thing, where 'i deserve it' plus an urge to apologise exist, then not sharing that and keeping it private might produce further regret?

dirtmother's avatar

My impression is that these are mostly situations far in the past. There are times when forgiveness is forthcoming and something beautiful happens but it strikes me as entirely possible that reaching out might be burdensome to the wronged and merely add to the harm she has done to others (and thinks she has done but hasn't or at least not to the degree she thinks). This is about her feelings, not anyone else's. I feel the work is precisely around clear sighted acceptance of the past whilst still living securely and positively in the present and future.

Gavin Stewart's avatar

Yes on reflection I think you're probably right. These events probably have a shelf life as you say. It once happened to me that I was able to apologise to a work colleague I had wronged 20+ years earlier. But we happened to bump into each other in a pub somewhere, otherwise I don't think there was any way to do it. It was very helpful for both of us, so I think it can have its place.

Harriett Seager's avatar

Thank you for this post, I suspect it will help many. I used to be in the same headspace but for me the attached feeling was guilt, not shame. I also felt as if I couldn’t make things better. But that’s the point, we need to accept that we’re fallible and just own it. If people decide to judge you or treat you poorly for it, then they’re not worthy of being in your life. Hold your head high and be the best version of yourself today.

Lizzy Lister's avatar

As a ruminator I found this such a helpful letter and response. Part of the problem of society is it builds much narrative around shame; particularly when there is an affair involved. Words like “cheating” simplify into black and white what is often a very complex situation. Philippa wrote a brilliant article about this a few months ago that is well worth reading.

Jenny Rogers's avatar

Dear LW.

You write about shame and humiliation and Phillipa has given you, as ever, a wonderful reply with some tools to reframe your thoughts.

My comment is about distinguishing between shame, guilt and remorse. Shame is a social thing, it's about what others might or do think if they know or knew what we've been up to. Guilt is about conscience - we breached our own standards. Remorse is about vowing to lead a different life.

You are at the remorse stage, which is great. You did the best you could at the time - it was about making decisions which seemed to help with psychological pain. As so often, they didn't but so what. That was then, this is now. You can move on.

The great religions know a thing or two about this. Catholics have confession followed by penance. Jews have the Day of Atonement. The point is that to get past the remorse stage, our poor behaviour needs to be confessed and witnessed by someone who says, OK, you did indeed make mistakes but so does everyone. It's fine, you can start again.

In effect that's what you've done here. You've confessed to us, we have heard you, collectively we say, 'Go, girl, live your best life from now on!'

Jean's avatar

I love this! We collectively have heard the LW and help and allow her to move on. Beautiful and speaks to the power of Philippa's work that brings us all together here.

Rhuels's avatar

There may also be a perspective of self-compassion in exploring how to welcome that former part into the self despite those negative behaviors back then.

While there may be resentment against that old self, (self) compassion could offer a way to see why that older self behaved that way - not to justify, but to be able to understand. The actions might have been wrong, not the person.

And through that compassion be able to become whole without having to exclude or resent that old part of herself.

Gavin Stewart's avatar

I agree. I think Philippa covered this in a recent post, the lady who wanted to be freed from destructive recurring behaviours (& wondered if she was a sex addict I think?). As I remember it, the advice centered on self reflection and "how does it make me feel when I get this urge" etc. This advice seems useful too for today's letter writer.

Nim de Swardt's avatar

A beautiful and potent read that reminded me deeply of the power of narrative therapy. I love narrative identity theory so much

Annie Macdonald's avatar

An excellent mantra, Jane- OBSERVE it don’t BE it!

Jane Grey's avatar

Well thank you. And thank Philippa, of course.

Lisa's avatar

Brilliant response, and really helpful suggestions for manageable changes, very best of luck to the letter writer. I really noticed the description of the mother as “the kind of woman who would have lied” about SA. I’m thinking this kind of woman is in a coercive relationship and traumatised herself. The letter writer could maybe also show compassion to themself as a survivor of intergenerational trauma.

Josi's avatar

For techniques how to get “unstuck” from your thoughts, for learning how to observe rather than be your thoughts, I find ACT very useful. A good starting point is Russ Harris’s book The Happiness Trap: https://thehappinesstrap.com/my-story/ Not being at the mercy of one’s thoughts is a gamechanger in my experience. Good luck 🍀