So I leave this comment as the daughter of a mother I wish I had no contact with. I haven’t been able to do it out of the guilt that I would feel, but this goes to the heart of the problem.
When I read this letter it sounded like something my mother would write- all about her, all about her feelings, all about her relationship with me. Sorry I know that’s really harsh and I absolutely don’t know the context of this relationship, but this is how it feels with my own mother. I can’t even tell her when I’m sick because very quickly the conversation is about how worried SHE is, how helpless SHE feels. And that makes me then feel guilty for causing her worry or stress. I’m never allowed space to feel how I feel without constantly worrying about the impact it will have on her. She sucks all the oxygen out of every conversation and it feels unbelievably selfish from my point of view.
I wonder if this woman’s daughter feels the same way? Just an alternative perspective- I don’t mean to cause any offence!
Hi Queer Mama, my mom can be selfish in this way as well, and while I sometimes do wish she was not around, most of the time I don't. I've long reconciled with the fact that she is not part of my support system and she just isn't someone I can lean on. I have hidden me being sick from her, but it's not painful for me to do that, it's more of a practical decision because when she gets worried she is very annoying to deal with and is more of a burden for me. I've long accepted that that's just how she is, and with that acceptance there's more distance to be curious about her as a person, set boundaries, and maintain the relationship in a way that is also good for me. I don't mean to challenge your experience and also don't mean to cause any offense, but just wanted to share my own experience with a very similar mother xx
Much the same as you Daizy/Queer Mama. Much the same strategies in place to cope. It has closed me down emotionally though and I find it very hard to ask for the right sort of help when I need it.
Queer Mama, it’s her letter about how she’s feeling so it is going to be all about her. Ironically your response is all about you, whilst acknowledging that you don’t know the context of the relationship breakdown from the daughter’s point of view which may have been for completely different reasons than your issues with your mum. It’s easy to make it about ourselves when something triggers us, so see this as an observation not a criticism. I do it too and I wish I didn’t. I think for my mum, her letting me know that my pain is her pain (explicitly!) is her way of saying she cares, whilst being oblivious to the effect of this would have on my ability as a child then adult then mother to feel emotionally safe to confide in her. I try my hardest to focus on the good parts of my mum (and there are many) whilst keeping a safe emotional distance but of course the relationship is very one-sided. Mum won’t change, and I really believe life is too short to cut your family out (though of course there are times that do require this)
It’s hard being a mum, and we get it wrong in lots of ways and this is often because we are not adequately supported so we can flourish in our role. It takes a bit of bravery to listen to our children and to not get defensive, accept that the wounding comments you hear are not necessarily factual but they are an indictment that something is wrong in the relationship or with our child and you need to try and work out what it is without crying all over them. Your friends are there for this!
Sounds exactly like my step-mother. I have been 'no contact' for a while now. I know it upsets her. But TBH it doesn't seem to be that she misses 'me' as a person, just she finds the 'situation' upsetting. She has much more warm and giving relationships with all her grandchildren. I think she sees herself as a 'good' grandmother' and perhaps this assuage some deep-seated guilt for being emotionally neglectful of her own children (her own 3) who are all deeply effected by her neglect in their own ways.
However, I am aware some people either aren't very emotionally... imaginative (for want of a better word) or simply don't have the... almost... language muscle memory to talk in terms of other people's feelings. So everything that comes put of their mouths is 'I feel', 'This impacts me in this way'. Almost like a verbal tic and that perhaps there is curiosity about how the other person thinks/feels but what comes out of their mouths is jut very... first-person orientated. If that makes sense?
Well, I feel the same way you do, but me with my dad. Exactly-you nail it. All about him and what serves him. If it doesn't he directs back to himself immediately. He's constructed a world of HIM. Worried about how everything impacts him.
It's so hard because as the child, feeling your parent doesn't really care about you hurts. At least that's how I feel.
I think the trouble is that when a parent, any parent, experiences this type of trauma, their reaction is going to be self-focused. Any human being experiencing ingense grief and pain is going to focus in on those emotions. So while I do understand people saying that their abusive parents would react similarly, I never really found it a fair comparison.
This may be true, but honestly the letter reads as fake. Something to get clicks. But even if we assume it's real, the " I was told I was fat-phobic, homo-phobic, trans-phobic and racist" ... we have no idea what actually happened or what was said.
If there are no specifics, like anecdotes and quotes with context, then there is no way to decide who is being fair and who is not.
Your mama sounds like my former mother(total not contact now after a lifetime of abuse, i'm done at 65). That particular 'technique' is making it about HER. You are allowed to have feelings without having them shut down.
You say you were never allowed to feel how I felt without constantly worrying about the impact it will,have on her. I have been in that place too. But here YOU are the parent(and you should not have to be). You have been robbed of safety even of your own feelings. The thing about mothers who makes it all about themselves, like your and my x-mother, it is all about control. And in the process, you get treated like a thing. And you're right sucking the air like she dies, is absolutely selfish. I don't know your mama, but the best thing to do: focus on you, get therapy if you need it.
If you are interested in a more about control and families I can suggest here on Substack: Suzy Bliss, or Vera Hart or Shadows of Control. i am sending you a hug🌸
I write this as a therapist, after much thought. I'm very familiar with this sort of awful, painful, unresolved relationship-breakdown through my work. I also have a friend in a similar situation to this mother. I've known my friend since we were at school, I've known her daughter since she was born. I see the family, and their dynamics from the outside.
With my objectivity, I see the ways of being that the people inside this family can't. We all have learned ways of being, passed down to us by parents in our 'family system', they are largely unconscious to us. There are always things that sit in our blind spots.
We don't know what we don't know. Something I uncovered recently with/for my friend, after hours of late-night talking, following much talking over the years, was a link between how her relationship with her own mother and sister was, and how this has been 'acted out' in her difficult relationship with her own elder daughter.
As my friend's daughter once used to confide in me, I've heard how she has experienced her mum. I know my friend (and her partner) feel all of the problem is with their daughter. That she carries attributes of my friend's own mother. It's as if the very last thing my friend might hear, or accept, is the part she has played, her tone, the way her own pain/anger is unleashed and, unfortunately, is triggered by this daughter.
What I'm trying to show (and it's incredibly hard to talk about) is that this kind of breaking down of relationship, between a mother and a child, often belongs to a generational system, that goes back in the family; everyone who is seen as a 'perpetrator' is also a 'victim' of the dysfunctional or difficult relating pattern, that they are not able to see.
It is hugely complex, hard to get hold of, and the ideal, I always think, is to have both parties in the room with a therapist, to work, over time to uncover these learnt ways of relating that have been painful but also get passed down. Ideal - but generally, impossible. I wonder if this mother can think about how she was parented, what difficulties she may have experienced as a child to a mother? It may provide a path (perhaps with some more therapy sessions? with a psychodynamic or analytic therapist?) towards greater understanding, or a different kind of conversation with her daughter?
At the end of the day, to say 'i love you', and 'I've been doing a lot of work, and thinking, and trying to understand us' is surely the best that anyone can put forward? If your daughter chooses not to respond to this, I think you can at least feel some peace that you have done the very best anyone could do.
I really connect to the generational observation you made. My mother had a traumatic upbringing, as did my father. In their own ways, their upbringings have shaped them, shaped their relationship with each other. I layer into this what was happening at a macro level, in my families case - World War II, my grandfather for instance at 17 seeing his friend shot next to him, seeing humans eat other humans apparently - he was part of a troop, that was part of the strategy of taking a city, of weakening a nation, by starving the citizens. So, he saw humans eating others. He was traumatised, and as with all of his generation, the war experiences were never spoken of, until his last years. He lived no doubt as many others in his country did, not only with this horror, but repressing it. His trauma became my mother’s trauma became my trauma. I’m not sure how to express it, but there is so much we carry, that we aren’t even aware of existence let alone its root, which makes it hard to make sense of. The more we know the more that is brought into light, the more we can understand and empathise. Not sure if any of that makes sense! Taking a sidestep, it is these impacts of major events, like war, colonisation, on everyday life, still reverberating through generations that to me underlines the importance of education of the histories that are shared, to help ongoing healing.
Wouldn't it make sense if, instead of learning the imports and exports of Merthyr Tidfil and how to do matrices (neither of which i remember from school), children were taught about attachment, emotional literacy, how trauma works/expresses itself/can be held in the body and other 'basics' that are 'bread and butter' theory to therapists?
I don't know how to make this happen. I'm not a politician or celebrity and I can't find a publisher for my book!
I think there is a book? 'The body keeps the score' by Bessel van der Kolk. Although perhaps that forms the basis of your more practical 'how to', which I think people would welcome with open arms! I look forward to reading it.
There is a fabulous programme called Roots of Empathy. It originated in Canada and now is in some British primary schools. Should be rolled out everywhere in my opinion.
Seconding your comment on intergenerational systems. I am fairly sure - it was often explicit - that my mum saw and still sometimes sees me as being a replica of her sister (who she didn’t talk with for the first 14 years of my life) and her mum/my granny (who, reading between the lines of my mum’s accounts and reading the lines of my aunt’s, was verbally abusive and manipulative). I was as a young person - and still sometimes am as an adult - often framed as (‘like them’) aggressive, intimidating, dismissive, ‘too clever,’ scary, etc. It’s very painful and, when I’d had less therapy and was in a messier place in my life, I found it and my dad’s periodic aggression very very hard to tolerate (I’ve yet to make sense of my dad’s aggression other than through gendering and because his dad was also aggressive).
I fell out with them a lot but there was one time, when I refused to visit them during Covid-19 because mum was in charge of a student accommodation and was banning students from visitors whilst inviting me and my sibling, when it felt like our relationships might collapse in on themselves entirely. It’s only through some years of therapy, stability in my own life, acceptance of them, and acceptance of my own agency and responsibilities, that I have come back to them.
I do also think the pandemic, its isolation and fear, the global uprisings often only witnessed through atomising digital media rather than something many felt like agents in, and the great grief of that time had long lasting impacts on all kinds of dynamics.
It’s painful. I hope the letter writer is okay, and that her daughter is as well. It can be very hard to reckon with someone else’s story about you - particularly a loved one’s - but that, combined with self compassion and understanding, might be the only way to reconnection that the letter writer can effect.
I agree with the inter-generational comment too. if trauma can be passed down, it seems other systems can too. This made me think about my mom's relationship with her mother. And I wrote a long comment above about how I love my mother deeply, dearly and she's may favorite person. I see similar characteristics in her to her mother, ones which strained their relationship (as she explained to me) but I somehow am able to put those aside, and I think that's because of who I am, and my ability to recognize both as a 7 year old, and an adult, what she went through and what she did for my sisters and I.
I can also recognize what she did differently as a mother than what her mother did, though our conversations. She and I have a deep and special bond that she doesn't have with my sisters, and I think that this has something to do with it. Also, my sister with 2 daughters has similarities as a mother to my mother, but they act out differently, and she and I have talked about what she's doing differently as a mother than what she experience with our mom.
So, you opened up a really interesting and though provoking subject! Thank you...
I wish I knew whether you were male or female! - As I was wondering whether it is a sex thing, a difference in the way girls and boys are experienced and treated...
If not, my friend is really close to her other daughter- there's a feeling of 'good child/bad child' and rivalry from the child that feels less favoured - exactly the same as my friend experienced with her own sister. These sorts of emotions can be so intense. When I did my training, I learnt that the arrival of a sibling is perhaps the most pivotal moment in our emotional development: how will we handle having to move aside for a smaller, cuter other? And how will our parents manage that, the making room for two, and making them both feel equally cherished?
I'm the middle daughter. Also, I'll share that my sister 2 years older than me and I went through a 3 year period of estrangement, initiated by me. I felt that she hated me simply because I was born and both my parents back up that theory (which I wish they had never done). She treated me like dirt when we were kids and now we're close, but it took a LONG time and alot of work for me to trust her, to trust that she really loves me.
All 3 of us are in our 50's if that adds to anything.
Sounds like there's an awful lot there... but good that you are able to articulate it! Many people don't know how to begin talking about these difficult things.
We are all born to parents who do what they can, with the skillset they have - sometimes it's not enough and dysfunction plays itself out through all family members. Allegiances form, rivalries set family members against each other, this is the work of therapy; to try to help those who seek it to change for the better.
REALLY hard, though, for you girls to be uprooted and join with another family of children. We crave stability growing up, especially when we are changing so much. We need a solid base-camp. This goes for physical place - as well as within our parents. So you suffered at least a double -whammy, as it sounds like your mum was really struggling, even as she embarked on a new relationship. An awful lot going on, I feel for you. Best of luck.
Thank you Jo. It has taken my whole life to understand the complexities of it all, and I'm still working on it with a fantastic therapist who I am grateful to have found. It has literally affected every facet of me. It's interesting and I never realized it until you wrote: "We need a solid base-camp. This goes for physical place". I come from an art background, but am a residential interior designer. I have a desire, and passion to help people make their homes better. Perhaps it all led me here.
To be clear, there was rivalry from my older sister, yes. How did she handle it? Not well. I believe she was jealous and angry, and when my mom uprooted us to move into my stepdad's house with his 3 girls (6 girls, all within 6 years apart!) she developed an eating disorder which she still has to this day. I visited he last week so I know for certain, backed up by many many health issues. You probably know better than me but from my research, eating disorders are all about control.
I was actually happy to move in there because it felt warm, busy, and my stepfather was an incredible man-present, interested, and always ready to support and give advice!
This is really heartbreaking to read and I'm very sorry for your loss.
It sounds like your daughter was releived that you accepted her viewpoint, she felt heard and then when you contacted her to tell her you didn't recognise the person she had described that was where this rupture came from. I'm guessing that she felt like you'd retracted your apology or that you invalidated her feelings. This is why she got so angry.
So Phillips point about accepting what your child says but not taking it on board is really at the heart of this. I'm not in any way shape or form a therapist but I do wonder if addressing that specific aspect of the rupture will being you back into contact? I don't know what the best way to do that is - maybe a therapist (or Philippa if you're reading this) could offer some advice.
On another point t that cane up for me when I read your letter - we are all in a little social bubble and echo chamber. So we tend to be surrounded by people like us. Asking our echo chamber how they view us they're going to tell us largely what we want to hear because they're like us. So even though its painful - listen to what your daughter has to say and be prepared to take it on board, however shattering it is.
To give you an example, my dad would be horrified if anyone called him a racist or homophobe because in his small village and social circle most people think like him, but sadly that's exactly what he is. And I think of myself as left leaning and were anyone to call me woke I'd wear it like a badge of honour. But just 10 minutes of talking about almost any issue with one of the apprentices in my office and they probably leave the conversation feeling the same way as I do about my dad. Just be prepared to accept your own failings and to treat them with the same love and care the rest of you deserves. I hope my answer gives you something to work with.
I was no contact with my Dad (my only parent after my mum died when I was 10) for 12 years from about age 18-30. I left home at 16 so was estranged from then and eventually I stopped being in touch at all.
The daughter sounds furious. I was furious. I was also hurting, badly, not just because of my Dad, and the only way I survived was by cutting contact. I was brutal - to myself as well as to him. I funnelled my rage into hating him and into deciding the only reason my life was shit was because of him. I wanted to punish him and I also needed to get away from feeling that much hate and from his view of me.
I got back in touch after therapy, when I grew to understand he was as much a victim of circumstance as I was and his own life had been fairly shitty too. I stopped seeing him as an all powerful parent who chose to be a rubbish person, but rather a human who couldn’t cope. Obviously that’s all very specific to our situation but I think the change in perspective about your parent is fairly universal because my daughter in turn vented all her own rage at me when she was a teenager, except I tried to empathise not see it as an attack and as she’s grown into being an adult (which I only did in my 30s) we’ve found a tolerance for each other and we enjoy each others company and find it increasing easier to talk about anything and everything. Parenting my teenage daughter was the single hardest thing I have ever done (and I messed up plenty).
I’d say, with hindsight, my own estrangement was about me and my own need to grow. In retrospect it was barely about him being an awful person at all, he was just the focus for it. He couldn’t accept me as I wanted to be and was, so the years away from him were necessary.
We never, by the way, agreed on a version of my childhood. He said it was too painful to discuss and so we didn’t. None of his views that I found abhorrent as a teenager changed. I am still very pleased, in the end, I did make that call. I would also have been secretly pleased to receive a call, for years I figured he was the parent, he should come find me. So if you wrote an email without rehashing the accusations but saying how much you miss her and want to find a way through, it will have an impact, even if it feels like it doesn’t solve everything immediately.
I also wonder, is she fat? Do you comment on it? I was fat and everyone commented on it. It didn’t make me feel loved. I don’t comment on anyone’s appearance at all now. (I am definitely fat phobic, btw. But silently bc it’s not my business what people do to their bodies).
Jack - I have tears pricking at the back of my eyes reading your post. My sister had a similar thing with my father and it was so horrible to watch. It’s a long and complicated story - and very, very sad. You acted in such a mature and compassionate way. You have my admiration, big time.
Thank you, although it was largely self interest at the time - trying to be a grown up. I can’t say I wanted to give him anything - though now I am pleased I did, inadvertently. Sorry to hear about your sister and Dad. Families are so complicated - what we expect from each other.
They sure are! I also acted out of self interest when my dad was dying. I just kept thinking what way should I behave so I’m not reproaching myself till kingdom come. I just hope I have learned the lessons my parents didn’t when it comes to listening. Probably haven’t !
I think the wondering about whether we are different from our parents has to be a good sign? At least we are trying! I’m pretty sure my Dad was never that introspective (nor, to be fair, would my Mum have been, but she came from a more solid family base herself so knew better what good parenting looked like). I found parenting really humbling and it wasn’t intuitive (how could it be in the circumstances?) but now my kids are grown I get to be more myself without squashing them or feeling squashed and that feels lovely.
Dear Jack, I too found your contribution really interesting. It's very frank and open and, in fact, so generous. Please may I ask you something...I do this with trepidation because it is possibly very forward of me. But have you ever spoken with your dad about what it was like for him being widowed and still parenting? I'm sure you have so please forgive me if I seem patronising. But it must be so very hard for a parent to lose their partner, to lose their child/children's parent, to carry on at all, let alone do it well. There is so much more help available nowadays for those bereaved. There was so little until relatively recently. But still people really struggle around bereavement. I've had so many people say such stupid things to me when my partner's child died. Many were so clueless and not necessarily even well-meaning tbh! But please don't reply if I've overstepped my curiosity. It is however relevant to my 'no-contact' story. Widowhood is. Btw you sound like a lovely mum!
No, he couldn’t talk about it. Most of the therapy I had at that time helped me understand his perspective better - which I was very resistant to initially. I saw him as the bad guy who didn’t look after me - which he didn’t. But in fact he was also someone who lost his mum when he was a child and whose sisters then looked after him. Plus, he had cancer the year after my mum died and had his bladder removed. Plus it was the 1980s and he was made redundant from the factory he worked in. Plus he had one overly articulate 10 year old daughter who didn’t want to serve as a domestic the way his sisters had. It was a lot for him and he didn’t handle it well - he used alcohol and gambling which only exacerbated the problems. I do now feel very sorry for him, (and for me when I was a kid, I’m not underplaying that). We didn’t have the benefit of grief counselling, you are right. In fact it’s only this year I’ve started fully grieving my mum thanks to CRUSE grief counselling. I am not sure my Dad would have been really open to it even if offered. His generation were more of the ‘suck it up and deal with it’ (or not) type.
Also I am so sorry for your loss - my Granny never really recovered from my Mum dying. Losing a child it’s the worst nightmare (my literal worst nightmare, I have it fairly frequently).
Yes - I often think the way I am (super self-critical, very worried about the effect I have on others makes me a sort of mirror image of my parents. As you say our questioning is a very good start. Xxx
"I stopped seeing him as an all powerful parent who chose to be a rubbish person, but rather a human who couldn’t cope." This is what I keep trying to remind myself when I get angry at my dad.
I have a sibling and his daughter (my niece) has gone no contact. She describes my brother in similar ways to how your child described you. My brother cannot see it and refuses to accept it. However, I was around for all of her childhood and teenage years - what she has said about her father is sadly true. I was a witness to it. I have regular contact with her and I decided I will never deny her experiences but I will also not immerse myself in the ‘bad father’ discussions. It’s a fine line. I don’t doubt he loved her - I saw it, but I also saw the language, the arrogance, the homophobia, the misogyny etc. I’m sorry for what you are going through - don’t retract an apology again - she must have felt devastated when you did that. Go to therapy yourself and keeping doing this hard inner work - never assume you will get her back but trust that one day you might. Don’t try to keep making contact right now - it’s deeply painful for both of you, but as an aunt who is watching this happen in my own family, I can only advise that you do your own inner work and let her navigate hers. Your son can be a bridge if he’s allowed to be his own person in this situation too.
It's unclear whether the apology was retracted or whether LW was conversing. Because if LW didn't see it, and if they had a genuine curiousity, then that would be a productive discussion to have.
It's possible LW was expressing doubt and saying her daughter was wrong. But it's also possible that LW wasn't saying that, but the daughter became emotionally reactive and interpreted it that way.
From own family experience, I’d add that often parents seem to be challenged with extending real respect to their children as individuals and not as extensions of themselves or possessions - to load their own emotions and thoughts onto without boundaries.
To cite Kahlil Gibran:
Your children are not your children.
They are the sons and daughters of life’s longing for itself.
They come through you, but not from you,
And though they are with you, yet they belong not to you.
You may give them your love, but not your thoughts,
For they have their own thoughts.
You may house their bodies, but not their souls,
For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.
You may strive to be like them, but seek not to make them like you.
For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.
You are the bows from which your children as living arrows are sent forth.
The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite, and He bends you with His might that His arrows may go swift and far.
Let your bending in the archer’s hand be for gladness;
For even as He loves the arrow that flies, so He loves also the bow that is stable.
My heart absolutely goes out to you. Learn to be kind to yourself, speak to yourself as you would someone you love dearly. Learn and find self compassion, because self compassion fills the gap when self esteem feels like it's deserted you. Love yourself. Because there is nothing about the person whom you truly are that there is not to love. And if you can think of something, then I would show you a lie. Self hatred is what makes us wish to leave this earth to soon. Self love reverses it. I've been far to close to the edge at times. I only wish I knew self love, self worth, and self compassion from the start. Love yourself, you are worthy.
This is a very kind comment. But easier said than done. I've been in a similar position to the letter-writer and I have read this sort of advice in self-help books. But for me I needed more practical advice. In my case, feeling at rock bottom, knowing that only I - and I alone - had to take responsibility for my 'mood', I forced myself to resurrect life-long ambitions (I have few tbh!). But one of them was to learn a 2nd language. So I've gone back to trying to do this and it's been very stimulating and exciting. And given me some self-encouragement, a bit of pride and a lot of fun! Because actually, fun seems key to me when you're faced with the endless misery of someone's contempt - especially if you don't understand what you ever did wrong in the first place and are never given a voice (I'm not, because it's all said behind my back). But arising from this refreshed and advancing education, I'm reconnecting with the person I was before I was 'annihilated'. I'm reconnecting with the person my friends always liked. Dumping the narrative that has been dominating my life, yet is outside my control. Or trying to anyway. I had tried to do this through gardening, which I love. But I couldn't stop ruminating and intrusive thoughts. Whereas I can't do that when I'm learning a language - it's a different form of concentration.
You really love your daughter. It’s clear and the impact of her withdrawal, of the silence is so deep. I am estranged by my choice from my mother who was abusive. I do love her and have a huge void where a Mum could be. It’s too painful being in contact. I share this in case any of this helps. I think about her often, i do not despise her nor am angry - I’ve told her I love her but that took time. I do want to see her but I am scared of the damage it could do to me, it’s taken some time to come to a peace. It’s a different situation but what I yearn for is for her to acknowledge what happened & for her to see things from my view. I know we never can truly, IMO, ever see another’s perspective in its entirety, but I wonder if you were able to show your daughter that you are putting her first, make it all about her - don’t talk about yourself - she may slowly (it may take years) start to come back. She seems to be in pain and seems to me to be saying you have and are causing her pain. You don’t say in letter if she is gay/ bi but you say she feels you are homophobic. If she is - is there / does she feel that you don’t accept her? Respect her space but keep trying - you are her mum. If i was her and I’m not her - a short letter saying how sorry you are and you want to acknowledge how you have hurt her. You are sorry for the pain you have caused her. You love her and want to make amends. This would help. It may take ages for her to reply and I know this is breaking you in pieces but she has to come to you and she has to feel it’s safe. I do know I’m hurting my Mum, and my hope is we are able to have some kind do relationship. I recognise she doesn’t act in or out of maliciousness, and I know that she is, as I am, just a flawed human. I hope if you and daughter are able to reconcile, after time she can also begin to see your side too. Don’t as much as it’s hard take it to your son. I hope this resolves and you and your daughter find a way to be in peace ❤️
I have to say - I think asking a mother to stay quiet, keep her human needs and perspective hidden, and self-abnegate so that her child can express itself without having to consider her feelings sounds like a dynamic from the past, from pre-adult times.
You are probably right, however, atm her daughter isn’t speaking to her at all and has estranged herself. Whilst the daughter may not be happy about this, she, as far as mother is aware, isn’t making any moves to reconcile. Mother wants to reconcile, daughter wants to stay away. For the mother to move past the first hurdle - for her daughter to speak to her, for the chance of a reconcile, whilst not wholly ideal, the mother to show to daughter she is putting her first, in these early stages, may start to build bridges. The alternative is for the mother to share how she is feeling, again as she did before, which didn’t move the dial. Whist the mother has every right to be able to express herself, it doesn’t seem that a reconcile that she wants will happen if she does this - it already pushed her daughter away. Even if communication reopens, there is still the risk the daughter may shutdown, even if daughter begins to open up, which in itself may take a lot of stages/ time, and then the daughter may at anytime still revert back to silence. Something has happened for the daughter to shutdown to this extent, something that while the mother may not see it is the daughter’s reality. To my mind, the priority is to find a way to begin to communicate that keeps the daughter engaged. It’s a really hard situation.
Well, some parents do deserve to be cut off when they deny emotional abuse, continue to gaslight and refuse any type of mediation with a neutral third party. My adoptive father has told me he’d be happy to have me and my son back in his life as long as I don’t bring up the past. So, no recognition of his actions or the actions of my deceased NPD adoptive mother. No accountability. No honest conversation. I want reconciliation but on reasonable terms. His refusal of this communicates very clearly to me what is most important to him. Infuriating, but keeping him at a distance is better than not being seen or heard in his presence.
I have had a very old friend, (we have known each other over 50 years), go no contact on me, after her and her long time husband split and I tried to support them both. The friend was furious and ended up being incredibly unkind to me and my family.
It's been hard unpicking it? I thought I was being kind to all parties. What I have learnt is, we cannot control how other people react, only look at our own stuff. I do feel this friend has tried to drive a wedge through our mutual friendships. All I can do is be myself hope that people see for who I am. I don't think I want to be friends with her anymore but I do acknowledge 50 years of friendship and there is a grief, and relief. Life is complex.
I agree with previous writer. Developing self-love self-care and self-compassion can help in these difficult situations.
We are all flawed human beings who are making sense of a world in extreme crisis. It is so hard to disentangle our own actions and behaviours from those of the bigger metacrises. Should I have done more? Or less? Is it my fault? Is it their fault? Should they have done more? Or less?
Being in the ecological mindset helps us not to overthink these things. Just being in the here and now. Being in appreciation and gratitude of everything that is nurturing and caring in our world.
There is loads of wisdom in Philippa’s response and response of others on here. And also misplaced anger, resentment, judgement and rejection.
I am not religious but that phrase ‘there but for the grace of God go I’ springs to mind. Or perhaps the parable of the Good Samaritan.
Everyone who is less fortunate than me, or who thinks differently, perhaps seems full of misplaced rage, judgement, complaint has a complex history in this troubled world whose systems are corrosive, extractive and damaging. They also have a complex inner world where they are try to make sense of things and find meaning in planet that at best is not thriving, at worst is actually dying.
Being in gratitude and in the present. Looking after ourselves and taking care of the others around us. Listening and learning and appreciating with humility, vulnerability and openness gives us the strength to make a positive contribution when we need positive contributors more than ever.
To the letter writer - my heart goes out to you. Being in gratitude for all you do have in your life whilst keeping the communications open (as others have said on here) by being in curiosity, acceptance, love and connection. As others on here have said - your daughter is also suffering/struggling/limiting herself/choosing judgement and hate over kindness and acceptance which will be affecting other areas of her life. When we don’t work out how to love and accept our parents with all their flaws, human inadequacies and clumsy communication we are not able to live truly free ourselves.
I know because I have a mother who lives another country who I ring most days. I mostly listen to her speak about her difficulties with life. Often in complaint.
I try to listen without judgement or without trying to fix. That is not my job.
Sometimes the conversation finds shared ground in world affairs or some other topic that we can enjoy talking about.
Sometimes I am feeling strong enough to talk about myself and acknowledge myself for an accomplishment (she would never offer this) or express vulnerability or frustration without expectations of a useful response. Those are the moments when she will occasionally open up enough to complement or acknowledge me. They are precious moments and are hard won achievements..
I will miss her when she is gone. And actually I will miss our calls and her feisty monologues. But I will be complete and know I have given her my love in this later phase.
I was that rejecting teenager. Non communicative 20 something. Triggered and triggering 30 and 40 year old. I have done a lot of work on myself.
I have good relationships with all three of my children in no small amount because I have learnt how to transform this one with my mother and where to take responsibility and where to let go of expectations.
So now I can (mostly) take criticism from my children and others with equanimity and grace - knowing that it is more about them learning to be adults than me being wrong.
Although these days I am learning to take good advice or opportunities to learn, when it comes in the form of harsh feedback or triggering conversations. Even though it feels painful at the time.
Stay curious and know you are only human after all - as Rag and Bone Man says…
I do think it is a little bit dismissive to counter Andy’s point about emotional abuse with: “we are all flawed human beings”. Yes we are, but I often feel that those on the receiving end of abuse will never be validated in their experiences because people just want to smooth over the cracks and not deal with difficult things. Yes, we are all flawed human beings and people who abuse others have obviously been through difficult stuff themselves and don’t know how to behave in the world, but we have an epidemic of abusive behaviour and acts towards children in this world and I don’t think people’s experiences should be minimised in this way. Multiple things can be true at once.
Andy, I agree. I always feel those like you and I that have been abused have to spend so much time and energy dealing with it. First is the abuse. Then the work of trying to heal from the abuse. Then knowing often, you will never receive the acknowledgement nor apology. And having to do the heavy lifting of accepting this. Having to hold the empathy for the abuser whilst maintaining dignity, strength for oneself. It is work that takes up time and somehow we have to do it and I feel we create more time to do this. So this time doesn’t eat into just living. The act of cutting someone off to me isn’t just about self protection, it’s also about time. Which maybe is about self protection. To be constantly gaslighted isn’t just painful it gets to a point (for me) where it’s just time wasting. I have empathy and know abusers were abused, but at some point - you put yourself first.
Yes! This is perfectly put. My life isn’t all daisies since I (after many years of reflection) reached a head with one of the main people who was like this, and took my distance from her. I have much more clarity, time, and life force and energy to devote to useful things, since I’m not spending my precious time here on earth trying to forgive and understand whatever latest awful comment. Twisting myself up into pretzels to try to “move on” and hobble weirdly forward (as I was urged to for 25 years, while no one wanted to address the origin issue: her spite). Now I have much more time, much more of a life, even if I feel guilty. When someone never apologies or reflects, what are we supposed to do? Also, relatedly, while I can be a little annoying to my friends these days, I am not overbearing with them the way I was for years, while navigating that other relationship . I brought this complaining, childlike energy and anger to my friends when trying to complete an impossible jigsaw puzzle. I lost some friends that way — they got tired — and I don’t blame them at all! I now I don’t have to strain or lose precious friendships, because there’s no one regularly abusive in my life. That’s a huge gift, too.
I hear you. I am old now and my mother died 18 months ago. I never cut her off, nor my father, who died in 2006. Spent months with my grandmother in infancy. Returned to my parents and confused the au pair with my mother. My fault - me ‘making a point’. Run over at 7 on a family picnic by the side of a main road. My fault - for being a ‘dreamboat’. Two anorexia-related psychotic illnesses at 18 and at 22. My fault - (see above ‘dreamboat’) + ‘not being honest’ with myself. Bowel cancer in 2021 - my fault for eating too much bbq food. My mother sent flowers, but never visited or phoned. When I nearly died after cancer surgery in 2023 my brother brought her to see me in hospital (a 2 hour drive) she spent 15 minutes with me. Her verdict afterwards was how upsetting it had been (for her) to witness me so unwell. . I have two brothers, with whom I maintain a relationship at some personal cost. They cannot (bear to) accept ‘my’ truth about our parents, which makes our relationship feel inauthentic to me, but I still very much want their love and sanctioning of me as a human being. They are close to each other, which hurts. I have 3 children and a husband. I am on loving terms with all of them, although my poor relationship with myself is most often the cause of issues with the children and sometimes with my husband. My ‘self-relationship’ has improved since my cancer, but for decades I believed myself worthless and that has impacted what I might have experienced/achieved if I’d had fewer deeply held self-doubts. Looking back now, perhaps I should have cut myself off from my family of origin? We all muddle through, I guess. I don’t know if it’s more important to preserve self-image and blame others in order to achieve a sense of affirmation/self-trust, or if we should accept responsibility for relationships and the crushing self doubt that that can cause. (Ironically, both blaming others, and crushing self doubt cause emotional damage to those we most care about. In my experience, anyway.)
I don't think it's ever easy to decide whether to go 'no contact' or not. I think my decision to do so was probably made easier because I'm in contact with my biological family.
For me it's not about blame because their parents were obviously awful too and the buck never stops. It's about validation - simple recognition that I experienced things very differently. When that's refused you're right that all that's left is an inauthentic relationship. In my case, my father refuses to see me as the person that I am. I have a son so it's easy for me to see how cruel and absurd this is.
Do your brothers notice their hypocrisy of not accepting your truth but expecting you to accept theirs? They sound just like my Dad.
Sad that so often love and acceptance are conditional with adoptive parents. I think estrangement is particularly common in our community as we start to question the accepted truths, and become more critical of the act of adoption. Best of luck 👍🏻
I have so much empathy for you. My daughter cut me out of her life after an argument 4 years ago. I rarely lose my temper and I think this came as a shock to her. All of my attempts to talk/ reconcile have been ignored. My other daughter gave me my estranged daughter's new address, I sent a birthday card and said I loved her very much, apologised for any hurt I caused and asked if we could talk. I heard nothing and as a consequence, she has also cut contact with her sister. After 4 years I don't know anything about her life now. It is a harsh punishment, which as Phillipa says, seems to have become a 'fashion'. The grief comes in waves, especially around birthdays and Christmas. I have learned to focus my love around my other daughter and her brother, who has learning difficulties. I spend lovely times with them and my bond has become stronger. I also volunteer, which has built up my self worth, and has made me realise I am not the awful person outlined in my daughter's email to me. Yes, I have made mistakes, but fundamentally I have loved my children and tried my best. Hold on to your self worth, build on your relationship with your son and friends. Look after yourself x
This response is to Phillipa really, because I was genuinely quite shocked to read your response today. You say that the writer doesn’t know what they have done to cause this and that that is the hardest part. You also say that children choosing to cut ties with their parents never used to happen so often but it does far more now and you blame social media and all or nothing thinking.
I want to offer my perspective as someone who felt the need to cut ties with one of their own parents.
It is one of the most painful things i have ever done. It has not ever, ever, ever been what I wanted for myself or for my dad, for us to not be in contact. I haven’t seen him in years . I have felt guilt and major anxiety about the ramifications of it including going through a phase of being terrified he would harm himself. But it was absolutely the right thing for me. What I’m trying to say is that people don’t just do this because of social media or for no reason or without great thought and without it being a last resort. You are aware, I’m sure, about how strong the parental bond is and the hold it can have over us, is. There are power dynamics even in adulthoood. not easy to break.
In the email the writer here says their daughter called them fat-phobic, racist, homophobic and transphobic, but in your comment it sounds like you don’t actually take these accusations seriously, or presume these insults /bigoted views were things said in reference to others and not this persons daughter.
To me it sounds very clear why this daughter cut ties - she has told them they are bigoted and clearly that has caused her a lot of pain. It doesn’t sound to me like this parent is wanting to hear this. Or take full responsibility for it. (I sincerely apologise to the writer if i am wrong and I recognise that you may have addressed this in the relational counselling you mentioned)
But I’m genuinely stunned how you(Phillipa) have taken such a strong side with the writer as though they could have done no wrong. Being on the receiving end of comments about your body from a parent for example, can do so much damage and perhaps she’s not willing to put up with that any more but the parent simply will not hear her or respect her wishes. We all have limits of what we can tolerate before our mental wellbeing starts to suffer. And with parents there can be decades of baggage and pain there.
I told my dad explicitly clearly and painstakingly the ways he had hurt me and what I needed to be different if we were to embark on building a relationship again. Conveniently he still tells me he doesn’t know what I want from him and invites me to tell him again. As if I haven’t spent years doing so already in emails and letters. I have had to stop repeating myself now to end this cycle, of not being heard. he has all the information in writing should he ever choose to start listening. and it is the best thing for me, and it is my therapist who has helped me to realise that, not tiktok!
My advice to this parent - would be to hear her and take responsibility for those times you could have done better whether you agree with everything she sees in you or not. No matter how hurt you feel at this rejection, your child is deeply hurt too. You need to be the parent and step up and make this about her not you. Even though it is hard. She accepted your apology after all, it was only when you back-tracked on it that she withdrew. Is that not understandable? She needed that apology but you took it away. There is something that hasn’t been addressed here.
Phillipa, just because estrangement is more common doesn’t mean it’s always the child being immature. This topic often seems to be discussed in a condescending way. I can hear my dad reading the stats and adding it to his fairy tale list of reasons why i’m not in touch and telling it to others, blaming it on my generation, all whilst refusing to accept the one real reason he has in writing.
I didn't make any comments towards my daughter about the things listed. They just arrived in a whole heap. I thought we had healthy discussions about changing cultural landscapes but I do tend to ask a lot of questions so I can 'get it' and understand, that didn't seem to go so well. The fat person is my cousin who's health I expressed great concern for and whom is suffering the terrible consequences of this. My kids had a male gay baby sitter for quite few years. I'm a late baby boomer of 64 and she is almost 35. I can only tell you my side 'cos I don't know her side apart from what I have listed.
It's tough to take a lot of these comments but I'm taking them on the chin. I've been in a dark place and I truly think if I hadn't wanted to burden anyone to care for my dog I'd not be here to send this reply. I still have to live with the notion that I may never see this wonderful person ever again.
I’m really glad you’re here. Though I stand by what I said, my apologies if my comment was a little passionate, I really hope things work out for you and with your daughter
This seems to be a case where the writer's friends' suggestions may not have served her well (or she took their love and support to be a call to action at any rate) by, as it would have seemed, going back on her apology, adding insincerity to her rap sheet.
-Ist and -phobe words are very triggering to those of us who like to think of themselves as a good, 'nice' person. Especially cis white females. It does hurt and it can be grotesquely unfair but oh the fragility! It can have the heart breaking effect of becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy, radicalising them. Rather than being a "Yikes! Is that how it comes across?" moment. You don't have to end up agreeing that's how it *is* and the labelling doesn't always come from a place of principle.
I note that there are no actual examples of things said or done and I find that telling, whether it is the daughter just slapping on the distancing labels (perhaps as a way of making space when her mother has felt overbearingly close), or the writer being careful to avoid us forming our own judgments that she had indeed done or said something rather awful. (I note that the reaction is all about mental health support for the distress rather than what might be termed 'doing the work' around those alleged -isms and -phobias)
Philippa's suggestion focussing on the relationship she does have with her son is vital. I wonder how he would feel if he read this letter?
I note there is no mention of what has happened to the other parent, which might be relevant. I wonder too if the emotional impact of being 'seriously ill' has been transferred onto the daughter's failings/hardheartedness/judgment/estrangement. (How did the daughter know the mother was seriously ill if they were estranged - there's no detail there) I think it is fine to have a good old 'poor me' whine, which this absolutely is: sometimes that's what you need to feel safe enough to do what might need to be done (whether that's acceptance or action) and it's the letter writer's problem after all and she is writing a letter to a 3rd party about her situation, not in family therapy or direct communication with her daughter.
It could be that this is fundamentally about the daughter's own issues (perhaps *her* friends pushed her this way, perhaps she is a big ruminator who cannot let go of what seem like small things to others and overgeneralises, perhaps she struggles to cope with acceptance of her mother as a real person, warts and all, perhaps it was the struggles of 'growing up' (which can hit late) or the pandemic) Perhaps the letter writer could sit tight, make herself a good life where she is now (what does she like to do?), not 'make things weird' with her son (thinking about what *he* might find uncomfortable not what she believes is perfectly reasonable to say/ask), and maybe there will be a rapprochement in time... sometimes people appreciate parents more when they become parents themselves for example. Even if there is, there is likely to be sadness about the lost time, so learning to sit with the sadness, whatever happens will be important, honouring the loss without letting it spill over and poison the good things she has.
This cannot be about 'making the daughter do the right thing' or 'being the innocent victim' or even 'I've been a terrible mother'
I am so sorry. I am so scared. I am going through the start of this now with my 18 year old son. The pain is unbearable. There is no way to make sense of it. It’s like all my worst recurring nightmares. I hope I manage to do the good things the OP has to keep going for my younger son who doesn’t understand what’s going on either. I want to find a way of stopping the train which is building speed, but can’t. Philippa’s advice to focus on what you do have is sage of course but it’s also completely heartbreaking to live with a living loss that you don’t understand. My heart goes out to the OP and everyone else in this impossibly cruel situation.
This sounds agonising but I don’t think you should give up. Ask your son to deliver her a letter from you this Xmas. Just say you think of her every day and would do anything to make amends and see her again. Forget who did what. Just focus on the best way to see her again. Keep showing up however you can to reinforce your love for her. Write each birthday & Xmas. Then work on acceptance of the situation so that you’re not fighting within yourself. This should bring you more peace while in the background you have hope of a reconciliation. Take up volunteering for a good cause, perhaps something related to children. This should help you feel purposeful. I wish you all the best.
I wholeheartedly disagree. If someone doesn't want you to contact them, respect that. It's obvious how the daughter feels, her sister broke her trust so she had to cut off the sister as well. Telling the writer to "get the brother" to contact his sister will only make things worse. Trying to force contact will only make things worse. Leave her alone to live her life and don't involve others.
To the people saying ‘it’s a fashion’ , I don’t think it is, people could emigrate or even just move a few towns away and virtually vanish. Even when I was a teen it was easier to go ‘no-contact lite’, essentially no-contact but pretending we hadn’t as we could send a maintenance postcard or similar, not having mobiles and not necessarily having a landline if you were living an ‘alternative lifestyle’ as I was. We have such different transport and communication links now it is an entirely different thing.
I’ve been agony aunting for 15 years and it’s been in the last 18 months it seems to have gone mad. Apparently 1 in 4 American adults are no contact with a parent now.
Speaking as a 40yo mother of two young kids and no contact with my mother - I would say that life for 'children' is becoming increasingly complex and challenging. I can see how intergenerational relationships are becoming strained. On the whole, I don't believe the post WW generation are emotionally equipped to engage with millennials and younger. This is reductionist, but as an example - my mother disapproves of my husband on the basis he is carribean. She voted for brexit and doesn't really 'get' climate change. Conversely, my generation are doing everything we can (on the whole) to ensure some form of, at the very least, stability for our children whilst wellbeing and quality of life is poor. Put simply - we are immensly stretched and terrified. Please - parents. Understand, we are terrified. Treat us like bone China. Hold us. Educate yourselves. Sooth our nervous systems. Listen. Judge us? Do anything other? Our cup is full and you will not be at the table.
And given the history of trauma and appalling parenting in our culture, it is highly likely that at least 25% of adult children of the first generation to have access to therapeutic support have good reason for their stance. For example, consider the initial ACE study that indicated that 22% of respondents had experienced CSA, and that is before considering any other form of damage. It may well be very painful to be in the first generation to be held to account for the dreadful patterns that they inherited. It may also be hard to step up and face the challenges that arise as a consequence. But every parent has a choice to do so or not.
1. It’s people attaching to online groups more than to IRL relationships, and particularly because that’s how we socialised in the pandemic.
2. We all practised “going no contact” in person in the lockdowns. I think what we did was necessary but there hasn’t been nearly enough conversation about the psychological impacts. We normalised instant cut-offs for young people.
3. I genuinely wonder whether some of it is the AI telling people to do this too. There’s horrible stuff about it telling children not to let parents know about their suicidal ideation.
From what I hear from mums of teens there is definitely a ‘fashion’ for going no contact with parents going round on TikTok etc, even when you are still living in their home, they are clothing you got school, putting food in your bellies etc etc. In my opinion any person or movement who tries to separate a child from their parent should be viewed with deep suspicion.
I agree and talk of 'fashion' and 'wokism' can easily come across as disrespectful and adult and 'becoming adult' offspring really want to feel respected.
I am sorry for your heartbreak and I can only imagine how painful being denied the relationship you are hoping for must feel. I’m reading that you cannot relate to the accusations your daughter has made, and the profound impact that the estrangement has had on you, and I’m wondering if these labels that your daughter has assigned as justification for going no-contact are unrelatable because they cast harsh judgements, but don’t tell you how your daughter is feeling, in a way that allows you to feel empathy for? This may not be the end, and there may be practical solutions in time that could help you gradually establish contact again, but in the meantime, could it be helpful to try to cultivate some understanding for what may have been going on for your daughter during the years when she described the relationship as breaking down? Could this feel like you are keeping her in mind, and working on your relationship in the absence of actual contact, also putting you in a better position to be open to understanding her, and your relationship, if she is in agreement to contact again in the future?
So I leave this comment as the daughter of a mother I wish I had no contact with. I haven’t been able to do it out of the guilt that I would feel, but this goes to the heart of the problem.
When I read this letter it sounded like something my mother would write- all about her, all about her feelings, all about her relationship with me. Sorry I know that’s really harsh and I absolutely don’t know the context of this relationship, but this is how it feels with my own mother. I can’t even tell her when I’m sick because very quickly the conversation is about how worried SHE is, how helpless SHE feels. And that makes me then feel guilty for causing her worry or stress. I’m never allowed space to feel how I feel without constantly worrying about the impact it will have on her. She sucks all the oxygen out of every conversation and it feels unbelievably selfish from my point of view.
I wonder if this woman’s daughter feels the same way? Just an alternative perspective- I don’t mean to cause any offence!
Hi Queer Mama, my mom can be selfish in this way as well, and while I sometimes do wish she was not around, most of the time I don't. I've long reconciled with the fact that she is not part of my support system and she just isn't someone I can lean on. I have hidden me being sick from her, but it's not painful for me to do that, it's more of a practical decision because when she gets worried she is very annoying to deal with and is more of a burden for me. I've long accepted that that's just how she is, and with that acceptance there's more distance to be curious about her as a person, set boundaries, and maintain the relationship in a way that is also good for me. I don't mean to challenge your experience and also don't mean to cause any offense, but just wanted to share my own experience with a very similar mother xx
Much the same as you Daizy/Queer Mama. Much the same strategies in place to cope. It has closed me down emotionally though and I find it very hard to ask for the right sort of help when I need it.
Queer Mama, it’s her letter about how she’s feeling so it is going to be all about her. Ironically your response is all about you, whilst acknowledging that you don’t know the context of the relationship breakdown from the daughter’s point of view which may have been for completely different reasons than your issues with your mum. It’s easy to make it about ourselves when something triggers us, so see this as an observation not a criticism. I do it too and I wish I didn’t. I think for my mum, her letting me know that my pain is her pain (explicitly!) is her way of saying she cares, whilst being oblivious to the effect of this would have on my ability as a child then adult then mother to feel emotionally safe to confide in her. I try my hardest to focus on the good parts of my mum (and there are many) whilst keeping a safe emotional distance but of course the relationship is very one-sided. Mum won’t change, and I really believe life is too short to cut your family out (though of course there are times that do require this)
It’s hard being a mum, and we get it wrong in lots of ways and this is often because we are not adequately supported so we can flourish in our role. It takes a bit of bravery to listen to our children and to not get defensive, accept that the wounding comments you hear are not necessarily factual but they are an indictment that something is wrong in the relationship or with our child and you need to try and work out what it is without crying all over them. Your friends are there for this!
Sounds exactly like my step-mother. I have been 'no contact' for a while now. I know it upsets her. But TBH it doesn't seem to be that she misses 'me' as a person, just she finds the 'situation' upsetting. She has much more warm and giving relationships with all her grandchildren. I think she sees herself as a 'good' grandmother' and perhaps this assuage some deep-seated guilt for being emotionally neglectful of her own children (her own 3) who are all deeply effected by her neglect in their own ways.
However, I am aware some people either aren't very emotionally... imaginative (for want of a better word) or simply don't have the... almost... language muscle memory to talk in terms of other people's feelings. So everything that comes put of their mouths is 'I feel', 'This impacts me in this way'. Almost like a verbal tic and that perhaps there is curiosity about how the other person thinks/feels but what comes out of their mouths is jut very... first-person orientated. If that makes sense?
Well, I feel the same way you do, but me with my dad. Exactly-you nail it. All about him and what serves him. If it doesn't he directs back to himself immediately. He's constructed a world of HIM. Worried about how everything impacts him.
It's so hard because as the child, feeling your parent doesn't really care about you hurts. At least that's how I feel.
So resonate with your response, I hear you, hugs.
I think the trouble is that when a parent, any parent, experiences this type of trauma, their reaction is going to be self-focused. Any human being experiencing ingense grief and pain is going to focus in on those emotions. So while I do understand people saying that their abusive parents would react similarly, I never really found it a fair comparison.
This may be true, but honestly the letter reads as fake. Something to get clicks. But even if we assume it's real, the " I was told I was fat-phobic, homo-phobic, trans-phobic and racist" ... we have no idea what actually happened or what was said.
If there are no specifics, like anecdotes and quotes with context, then there is no way to decide who is being fair and who is not.
Hi Qeer Mama
Your mama sounds like my former mother(total not contact now after a lifetime of abuse, i'm done at 65). That particular 'technique' is making it about HER. You are allowed to have feelings without having them shut down.
You say you were never allowed to feel how I felt without constantly worrying about the impact it will,have on her. I have been in that place too. But here YOU are the parent(and you should not have to be). You have been robbed of safety even of your own feelings. The thing about mothers who makes it all about themselves, like your and my x-mother, it is all about control. And in the process, you get treated like a thing. And you're right sucking the air like she dies, is absolutely selfish. I don't know your mama, but the best thing to do: focus on you, get therapy if you need it.
If you are interested in a more about control and families I can suggest here on Substack: Suzy Bliss, or Vera Hart or Shadows of Control. i am sending you a hug🌸
I write this as a therapist, after much thought. I'm very familiar with this sort of awful, painful, unresolved relationship-breakdown through my work. I also have a friend in a similar situation to this mother. I've known my friend since we were at school, I've known her daughter since she was born. I see the family, and their dynamics from the outside.
With my objectivity, I see the ways of being that the people inside this family can't. We all have learned ways of being, passed down to us by parents in our 'family system', they are largely unconscious to us. There are always things that sit in our blind spots.
We don't know what we don't know. Something I uncovered recently with/for my friend, after hours of late-night talking, following much talking over the years, was a link between how her relationship with her own mother and sister was, and how this has been 'acted out' in her difficult relationship with her own elder daughter.
As my friend's daughter once used to confide in me, I've heard how she has experienced her mum. I know my friend (and her partner) feel all of the problem is with their daughter. That she carries attributes of my friend's own mother. It's as if the very last thing my friend might hear, or accept, is the part she has played, her tone, the way her own pain/anger is unleashed and, unfortunately, is triggered by this daughter.
What I'm trying to show (and it's incredibly hard to talk about) is that this kind of breaking down of relationship, between a mother and a child, often belongs to a generational system, that goes back in the family; everyone who is seen as a 'perpetrator' is also a 'victim' of the dysfunctional or difficult relating pattern, that they are not able to see.
It is hugely complex, hard to get hold of, and the ideal, I always think, is to have both parties in the room with a therapist, to work, over time to uncover these learnt ways of relating that have been painful but also get passed down. Ideal - but generally, impossible. I wonder if this mother can think about how she was parented, what difficulties she may have experienced as a child to a mother? It may provide a path (perhaps with some more therapy sessions? with a psychodynamic or analytic therapist?) towards greater understanding, or a different kind of conversation with her daughter?
At the end of the day, to say 'i love you', and 'I've been doing a lot of work, and thinking, and trying to understand us' is surely the best that anyone can put forward? If your daughter chooses not to respond to this, I think you can at least feel some peace that you have done the very best anyone could do.
I really connect to the generational observation you made. My mother had a traumatic upbringing, as did my father. In their own ways, their upbringings have shaped them, shaped their relationship with each other. I layer into this what was happening at a macro level, in my families case - World War II, my grandfather for instance at 17 seeing his friend shot next to him, seeing humans eat other humans apparently - he was part of a troop, that was part of the strategy of taking a city, of weakening a nation, by starving the citizens. So, he saw humans eating others. He was traumatised, and as with all of his generation, the war experiences were never spoken of, until his last years. He lived no doubt as many others in his country did, not only with this horror, but repressing it. His trauma became my mother’s trauma became my trauma. I’m not sure how to express it, but there is so much we carry, that we aren’t even aware of existence let alone its root, which makes it hard to make sense of. The more we know the more that is brought into light, the more we can understand and empathise. Not sure if any of that makes sense! Taking a sidestep, it is these impacts of major events, like war, colonisation, on everyday life, still reverberating through generations that to me underlines the importance of education of the histories that are shared, to help ongoing healing.
You’ve expressed it perfectly.
This knowledge underpins the training & work of many therapists yet it’s not in the public conversation.
Crazy, huh?
Wouldn't it make sense if, instead of learning the imports and exports of Merthyr Tidfil and how to do matrices (neither of which i remember from school), children were taught about attachment, emotional literacy, how trauma works/expresses itself/can be held in the body and other 'basics' that are 'bread and butter' theory to therapists?
I don't know how to make this happen. I'm not a politician or celebrity and I can't find a publisher for my book!
I think there is a book? 'The body keeps the score' by Bessel van der Kolk. Although perhaps that forms the basis of your more practical 'how to', which I think people would welcome with open arms! I look forward to reading it.
This would be incredible. And it’s not infeasible. Interested to know if there have been pilots anywhere…
There is a fabulous programme called Roots of Empathy. It originated in Canada and now is in some British primary schools. Should be rolled out everywhere in my opinion.
Thank you. This response made perfect sense of my own situation. Really helpful.
Seconding your comment on intergenerational systems. I am fairly sure - it was often explicit - that my mum saw and still sometimes sees me as being a replica of her sister (who she didn’t talk with for the first 14 years of my life) and her mum/my granny (who, reading between the lines of my mum’s accounts and reading the lines of my aunt’s, was verbally abusive and manipulative). I was as a young person - and still sometimes am as an adult - often framed as (‘like them’) aggressive, intimidating, dismissive, ‘too clever,’ scary, etc. It’s very painful and, when I’d had less therapy and was in a messier place in my life, I found it and my dad’s periodic aggression very very hard to tolerate (I’ve yet to make sense of my dad’s aggression other than through gendering and because his dad was also aggressive).
I fell out with them a lot but there was one time, when I refused to visit them during Covid-19 because mum was in charge of a student accommodation and was banning students from visitors whilst inviting me and my sibling, when it felt like our relationships might collapse in on themselves entirely. It’s only through some years of therapy, stability in my own life, acceptance of them, and acceptance of my own agency and responsibilities, that I have come back to them.
I do also think the pandemic, its isolation and fear, the global uprisings often only witnessed through atomising digital media rather than something many felt like agents in, and the great grief of that time had long lasting impacts on all kinds of dynamics.
It’s painful. I hope the letter writer is okay, and that her daughter is as well. It can be very hard to reckon with someone else’s story about you - particularly a loved one’s - but that, combined with self compassion and understanding, might be the only way to reconnection that the letter writer can effect.
I agree with the inter-generational comment too. if trauma can be passed down, it seems other systems can too. This made me think about my mom's relationship with her mother. And I wrote a long comment above about how I love my mother deeply, dearly and she's may favorite person. I see similar characteristics in her to her mother, ones which strained their relationship (as she explained to me) but I somehow am able to put those aside, and I think that's because of who I am, and my ability to recognize both as a 7 year old, and an adult, what she went through and what she did for my sisters and I.
I can also recognize what she did differently as a mother than what her mother did, though our conversations. She and I have a deep and special bond that she doesn't have with my sisters, and I think that this has something to do with it. Also, my sister with 2 daughters has similarities as a mother to my mother, but they act out differently, and she and I have talked about what she's doing differently as a mother than what she experience with our mom.
So, you opened up a really interesting and though provoking subject! Thank you...
I wish I knew whether you were male or female! - As I was wondering whether it is a sex thing, a difference in the way girls and boys are experienced and treated...
If not, my friend is really close to her other daughter- there's a feeling of 'good child/bad child' and rivalry from the child that feels less favoured - exactly the same as my friend experienced with her own sister. These sorts of emotions can be so intense. When I did my training, I learnt that the arrival of a sibling is perhaps the most pivotal moment in our emotional development: how will we handle having to move aside for a smaller, cuter other? And how will our parents manage that, the making room for two, and making them both feel equally cherished?
I'm the middle daughter. Also, I'll share that my sister 2 years older than me and I went through a 3 year period of estrangement, initiated by me. I felt that she hated me simply because I was born and both my parents back up that theory (which I wish they had never done). She treated me like dirt when we were kids and now we're close, but it took a LONG time and alot of work for me to trust her, to trust that she really loves me.
All 3 of us are in our 50's if that adds to anything.
Sounds like there's an awful lot there... but good that you are able to articulate it! Many people don't know how to begin talking about these difficult things.
We are all born to parents who do what they can, with the skillset they have - sometimes it's not enough and dysfunction plays itself out through all family members. Allegiances form, rivalries set family members against each other, this is the work of therapy; to try to help those who seek it to change for the better.
REALLY hard, though, for you girls to be uprooted and join with another family of children. We crave stability growing up, especially when we are changing so much. We need a solid base-camp. This goes for physical place - as well as within our parents. So you suffered at least a double -whammy, as it sounds like your mum was really struggling, even as she embarked on a new relationship. An awful lot going on, I feel for you. Best of luck.
Thank you Jo. It has taken my whole life to understand the complexities of it all, and I'm still working on it with a fantastic therapist who I am grateful to have found. It has literally affected every facet of me. It's interesting and I never realized it until you wrote: "We need a solid base-camp. This goes for physical place". I come from an art background, but am a residential interior designer. I have a desire, and passion to help people make their homes better. Perhaps it all led me here.
Thank you
To be clear, there was rivalry from my older sister, yes. How did she handle it? Not well. I believe she was jealous and angry, and when my mom uprooted us to move into my stepdad's house with his 3 girls (6 girls, all within 6 years apart!) she developed an eating disorder which she still has to this day. I visited he last week so I know for certain, backed up by many many health issues. You probably know better than me but from my research, eating disorders are all about control.
I was actually happy to move in there because it felt warm, busy, and my stepfather was an incredible man-present, interested, and always ready to support and give advice!
The devil is in The ‘not knowing’ for sure! Lovely insight.
I had such a huge number of likes for my comment here, it left me wondering what I'd said that struck such a chord...
I've posted this short piece on a concept that came into my mind that is pivotal in helping me make sense of inter-generational trauma.
https://jobissekerbarr.substack.com/p/ghosts-in-the-nursery?utm_campaign=post-expanded-share&utm_medium=web
There is Also ‘When the Body Days No’ by Gabor Maté.
I love that! 🤗
This is really heartbreaking to read and I'm very sorry for your loss.
It sounds like your daughter was releived that you accepted her viewpoint, she felt heard and then when you contacted her to tell her you didn't recognise the person she had described that was where this rupture came from. I'm guessing that she felt like you'd retracted your apology or that you invalidated her feelings. This is why she got so angry.
So Phillips point about accepting what your child says but not taking it on board is really at the heart of this. I'm not in any way shape or form a therapist but I do wonder if addressing that specific aspect of the rupture will being you back into contact? I don't know what the best way to do that is - maybe a therapist (or Philippa if you're reading this) could offer some advice.
On another point t that cane up for me when I read your letter - we are all in a little social bubble and echo chamber. So we tend to be surrounded by people like us. Asking our echo chamber how they view us they're going to tell us largely what we want to hear because they're like us. So even though its painful - listen to what your daughter has to say and be prepared to take it on board, however shattering it is.
To give you an example, my dad would be horrified if anyone called him a racist or homophobe because in his small village and social circle most people think like him, but sadly that's exactly what he is. And I think of myself as left leaning and were anyone to call me woke I'd wear it like a badge of honour. But just 10 minutes of talking about almost any issue with one of the apprentices in my office and they probably leave the conversation feeling the same way as I do about my dad. Just be prepared to accept your own failings and to treat them with the same love and care the rest of you deserves. I hope my answer gives you something to work with.
Best wishes
I was no contact with my Dad (my only parent after my mum died when I was 10) for 12 years from about age 18-30. I left home at 16 so was estranged from then and eventually I stopped being in touch at all.
The daughter sounds furious. I was furious. I was also hurting, badly, not just because of my Dad, and the only way I survived was by cutting contact. I was brutal - to myself as well as to him. I funnelled my rage into hating him and into deciding the only reason my life was shit was because of him. I wanted to punish him and I also needed to get away from feeling that much hate and from his view of me.
I got back in touch after therapy, when I grew to understand he was as much a victim of circumstance as I was and his own life had been fairly shitty too. I stopped seeing him as an all powerful parent who chose to be a rubbish person, but rather a human who couldn’t cope. Obviously that’s all very specific to our situation but I think the change in perspective about your parent is fairly universal because my daughter in turn vented all her own rage at me when she was a teenager, except I tried to empathise not see it as an attack and as she’s grown into being an adult (which I only did in my 30s) we’ve found a tolerance for each other and we enjoy each others company and find it increasing easier to talk about anything and everything. Parenting my teenage daughter was the single hardest thing I have ever done (and I messed up plenty).
I’d say, with hindsight, my own estrangement was about me and my own need to grow. In retrospect it was barely about him being an awful person at all, he was just the focus for it. He couldn’t accept me as I wanted to be and was, so the years away from him were necessary.
We never, by the way, agreed on a version of my childhood. He said it was too painful to discuss and so we didn’t. None of his views that I found abhorrent as a teenager changed. I am still very pleased, in the end, I did make that call. I would also have been secretly pleased to receive a call, for years I figured he was the parent, he should come find me. So if you wrote an email without rehashing the accusations but saying how much you miss her and want to find a way through, it will have an impact, even if it feels like it doesn’t solve everything immediately.
I also wonder, is she fat? Do you comment on it? I was fat and everyone commented on it. It didn’t make me feel loved. I don’t comment on anyone’s appearance at all now. (I am definitely fat phobic, btw. But silently bc it’s not my business what people do to their bodies).
Jack - I have tears pricking at the back of my eyes reading your post. My sister had a similar thing with my father and it was so horrible to watch. It’s a long and complicated story - and very, very sad. You acted in such a mature and compassionate way. You have my admiration, big time.
Thank you, although it was largely self interest at the time - trying to be a grown up. I can’t say I wanted to give him anything - though now I am pleased I did, inadvertently. Sorry to hear about your sister and Dad. Families are so complicated - what we expect from each other.
They sure are! I also acted out of self interest when my dad was dying. I just kept thinking what way should I behave so I’m not reproaching myself till kingdom come. I just hope I have learned the lessons my parents didn’t when it comes to listening. Probably haven’t !
I think the wondering about whether we are different from our parents has to be a good sign? At least we are trying! I’m pretty sure my Dad was never that introspective (nor, to be fair, would my Mum have been, but she came from a more solid family base herself so knew better what good parenting looked like). I found parenting really humbling and it wasn’t intuitive (how could it be in the circumstances?) but now my kids are grown I get to be more myself without squashing them or feeling squashed and that feels lovely.
Dear Jack, I too found your contribution really interesting. It's very frank and open and, in fact, so generous. Please may I ask you something...I do this with trepidation because it is possibly very forward of me. But have you ever spoken with your dad about what it was like for him being widowed and still parenting? I'm sure you have so please forgive me if I seem patronising. But it must be so very hard for a parent to lose their partner, to lose their child/children's parent, to carry on at all, let alone do it well. There is so much more help available nowadays for those bereaved. There was so little until relatively recently. But still people really struggle around bereavement. I've had so many people say such stupid things to me when my partner's child died. Many were so clueless and not necessarily even well-meaning tbh! But please don't reply if I've overstepped my curiosity. It is however relevant to my 'no-contact' story. Widowhood is. Btw you sound like a lovely mum!
No, he couldn’t talk about it. Most of the therapy I had at that time helped me understand his perspective better - which I was very resistant to initially. I saw him as the bad guy who didn’t look after me - which he didn’t. But in fact he was also someone who lost his mum when he was a child and whose sisters then looked after him. Plus, he had cancer the year after my mum died and had his bladder removed. Plus it was the 1980s and he was made redundant from the factory he worked in. Plus he had one overly articulate 10 year old daughter who didn’t want to serve as a domestic the way his sisters had. It was a lot for him and he didn’t handle it well - he used alcohol and gambling which only exacerbated the problems. I do now feel very sorry for him, (and for me when I was a kid, I’m not underplaying that). We didn’t have the benefit of grief counselling, you are right. In fact it’s only this year I’ve started fully grieving my mum thanks to CRUSE grief counselling. I am not sure my Dad would have been really open to it even if offered. His generation were more of the ‘suck it up and deal with it’ (or not) type.
Also I am so sorry for your loss - my Granny never really recovered from my Mum dying. Losing a child it’s the worst nightmare (my literal worst nightmare, I have it fairly frequently).
Yes - I often think the way I am (super self-critical, very worried about the effect I have on others makes me a sort of mirror image of my parents. As you say our questioning is a very good start. Xxx
Jack, 'what we expect from each other'....so right, and so much simpler not to expect anything at all.
That takes a lot of getting to, I think. But is worth trying for!
"I stopped seeing him as an all powerful parent who chose to be a rubbish person, but rather a human who couldn’t cope." This is what I keep trying to remind myself when I get angry at my dad.
It's certainly very powerful, that input. Helpful. People's expectations of perfection can be rather high!
I have a sibling and his daughter (my niece) has gone no contact. She describes my brother in similar ways to how your child described you. My brother cannot see it and refuses to accept it. However, I was around for all of her childhood and teenage years - what she has said about her father is sadly true. I was a witness to it. I have regular contact with her and I decided I will never deny her experiences but I will also not immerse myself in the ‘bad father’ discussions. It’s a fine line. I don’t doubt he loved her - I saw it, but I also saw the language, the arrogance, the homophobia, the misogyny etc. I’m sorry for what you are going through - don’t retract an apology again - she must have felt devastated when you did that. Go to therapy yourself and keeping doing this hard inner work - never assume you will get her back but trust that one day you might. Don’t try to keep making contact right now - it’s deeply painful for both of you, but as an aunt who is watching this happen in my own family, I can only advise that you do your own inner work and let her navigate hers. Your son can be a bridge if he’s allowed to be his own person in this situation too.
It's unclear whether the apology was retracted or whether LW was conversing. Because if LW didn't see it, and if they had a genuine curiousity, then that would be a productive discussion to have.
It's possible LW was expressing doubt and saying her daughter was wrong. But it's also possible that LW wasn't saying that, but the daughter became emotionally reactive and interpreted it that way.
From own family experience, I’d add that often parents seem to be challenged with extending real respect to their children as individuals and not as extensions of themselves or possessions - to load their own emotions and thoughts onto without boundaries.
To cite Kahlil Gibran:
Your children are not your children.
They are the sons and daughters of life’s longing for itself.
They come through you, but not from you,
And though they are with you, yet they belong not to you.
You may give them your love, but not your thoughts,
For they have their own thoughts.
You may house their bodies, but not their souls,
For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.
You may strive to be like them, but seek not to make them like you.
For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.
You are the bows from which your children as living arrows are sent forth.
The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite, and He bends you with His might that His arrows may go swift and far.
Let your bending in the archer’s hand be for gladness;
For even as He loves the arrow that flies, so He loves also the bow that is stable.
Well said! And thank you for sharing.
Beautiful!
My heart absolutely goes out to you. Learn to be kind to yourself, speak to yourself as you would someone you love dearly. Learn and find self compassion, because self compassion fills the gap when self esteem feels like it's deserted you. Love yourself. Because there is nothing about the person whom you truly are that there is not to love. And if you can think of something, then I would show you a lie. Self hatred is what makes us wish to leave this earth to soon. Self love reverses it. I've been far to close to the edge at times. I only wish I knew self love, self worth, and self compassion from the start. Love yourself, you are worthy.
Pete
This is a very kind comment. But easier said than done. I've been in a similar position to the letter-writer and I have read this sort of advice in self-help books. But for me I needed more practical advice. In my case, feeling at rock bottom, knowing that only I - and I alone - had to take responsibility for my 'mood', I forced myself to resurrect life-long ambitions (I have few tbh!). But one of them was to learn a 2nd language. So I've gone back to trying to do this and it's been very stimulating and exciting. And given me some self-encouragement, a bit of pride and a lot of fun! Because actually, fun seems key to me when you're faced with the endless misery of someone's contempt - especially if you don't understand what you ever did wrong in the first place and are never given a voice (I'm not, because it's all said behind my back). But arising from this refreshed and advancing education, I'm reconnecting with the person I was before I was 'annihilated'. I'm reconnecting with the person my friends always liked. Dumping the narrative that has been dominating my life, yet is outside my control. Or trying to anyway. I had tried to do this through gardening, which I love. But I couldn't stop ruminating and intrusive thoughts. Whereas I can't do that when I'm learning a language - it's a different form of concentration.
You really love your daughter. It’s clear and the impact of her withdrawal, of the silence is so deep. I am estranged by my choice from my mother who was abusive. I do love her and have a huge void where a Mum could be. It’s too painful being in contact. I share this in case any of this helps. I think about her often, i do not despise her nor am angry - I’ve told her I love her but that took time. I do want to see her but I am scared of the damage it could do to me, it’s taken some time to come to a peace. It’s a different situation but what I yearn for is for her to acknowledge what happened & for her to see things from my view. I know we never can truly, IMO, ever see another’s perspective in its entirety, but I wonder if you were able to show your daughter that you are putting her first, make it all about her - don’t talk about yourself - she may slowly (it may take years) start to come back. She seems to be in pain and seems to me to be saying you have and are causing her pain. You don’t say in letter if she is gay/ bi but you say she feels you are homophobic. If she is - is there / does she feel that you don’t accept her? Respect her space but keep trying - you are her mum. If i was her and I’m not her - a short letter saying how sorry you are and you want to acknowledge how you have hurt her. You are sorry for the pain you have caused her. You love her and want to make amends. This would help. It may take ages for her to reply and I know this is breaking you in pieces but she has to come to you and she has to feel it’s safe. I do know I’m hurting my Mum, and my hope is we are able to have some kind do relationship. I recognise she doesn’t act in or out of maliciousness, and I know that she is, as I am, just a flawed human. I hope if you and daughter are able to reconcile, after time she can also begin to see your side too. Don’t as much as it’s hard take it to your son. I hope this resolves and you and your daughter find a way to be in peace ❤️
I have to say - I think asking a mother to stay quiet, keep her human needs and perspective hidden, and self-abnegate so that her child can express itself without having to consider her feelings sounds like a dynamic from the past, from pre-adult times.
You are probably right, however, atm her daughter isn’t speaking to her at all and has estranged herself. Whilst the daughter may not be happy about this, she, as far as mother is aware, isn’t making any moves to reconcile. Mother wants to reconcile, daughter wants to stay away. For the mother to move past the first hurdle - for her daughter to speak to her, for the chance of a reconcile, whilst not wholly ideal, the mother to show to daughter she is putting her first, in these early stages, may start to build bridges. The alternative is for the mother to share how she is feeling, again as she did before, which didn’t move the dial. Whist the mother has every right to be able to express herself, it doesn’t seem that a reconcile that she wants will happen if she does this - it already pushed her daughter away. Even if communication reopens, there is still the risk the daughter may shutdown, even if daughter begins to open up, which in itself may take a lot of stages/ time, and then the daughter may at anytime still revert back to silence. Something has happened for the daughter to shutdown to this extent, something that while the mother may not see it is the daughter’s reality. To my mind, the priority is to find a way to begin to communicate that keeps the daughter engaged. It’s a really hard situation.
Well, some parents do deserve to be cut off when they deny emotional abuse, continue to gaslight and refuse any type of mediation with a neutral third party. My adoptive father has told me he’d be happy to have me and my son back in his life as long as I don’t bring up the past. So, no recognition of his actions or the actions of my deceased NPD adoptive mother. No accountability. No honest conversation. I want reconciliation but on reasonable terms. His refusal of this communicates very clearly to me what is most important to him. Infuriating, but keeping him at a distance is better than not being seen or heard in his presence.
I have had a very old friend, (we have known each other over 50 years), go no contact on me, after her and her long time husband split and I tried to support them both. The friend was furious and ended up being incredibly unkind to me and my family.
It's been hard unpicking it? I thought I was being kind to all parties. What I have learnt is, we cannot control how other people react, only look at our own stuff. I do feel this friend has tried to drive a wedge through our mutual friendships. All I can do is be myself hope that people see for who I am. I don't think I want to be friends with her anymore but I do acknowledge 50 years of friendship and there is a grief, and relief. Life is complex.
I agree with previous writer. Developing self-love self-care and self-compassion can help in these difficult situations.
We are all flawed human beings who are making sense of a world in extreme crisis. It is so hard to disentangle our own actions and behaviours from those of the bigger metacrises. Should I have done more? Or less? Is it my fault? Is it their fault? Should they have done more? Or less?
Being in the ecological mindset helps us not to overthink these things. Just being in the here and now. Being in appreciation and gratitude of everything that is nurturing and caring in our world.
There is loads of wisdom in Philippa’s response and response of others on here. And also misplaced anger, resentment, judgement and rejection.
I am not religious but that phrase ‘there but for the grace of God go I’ springs to mind. Or perhaps the parable of the Good Samaritan.
Everyone who is less fortunate than me, or who thinks differently, perhaps seems full of misplaced rage, judgement, complaint has a complex history in this troubled world whose systems are corrosive, extractive and damaging. They also have a complex inner world where they are try to make sense of things and find meaning in planet that at best is not thriving, at worst is actually dying.
Being in gratitude and in the present. Looking after ourselves and taking care of the others around us. Listening and learning and appreciating with humility, vulnerability and openness gives us the strength to make a positive contribution when we need positive contributors more than ever.
To the letter writer - my heart goes out to you. Being in gratitude for all you do have in your life whilst keeping the communications open (as others have said on here) by being in curiosity, acceptance, love and connection. As others on here have said - your daughter is also suffering/struggling/limiting herself/choosing judgement and hate over kindness and acceptance which will be affecting other areas of her life. When we don’t work out how to love and accept our parents with all their flaws, human inadequacies and clumsy communication we are not able to live truly free ourselves.
I know because I have a mother who lives another country who I ring most days. I mostly listen to her speak about her difficulties with life. Often in complaint.
I try to listen without judgement or without trying to fix. That is not my job.
Sometimes the conversation finds shared ground in world affairs or some other topic that we can enjoy talking about.
Sometimes I am feeling strong enough to talk about myself and acknowledge myself for an accomplishment (she would never offer this) or express vulnerability or frustration without expectations of a useful response. Those are the moments when she will occasionally open up enough to complement or acknowledge me. They are precious moments and are hard won achievements..
I will miss her when she is gone. And actually I will miss our calls and her feisty monologues. But I will be complete and know I have given her my love in this later phase.
I was that rejecting teenager. Non communicative 20 something. Triggered and triggering 30 and 40 year old. I have done a lot of work on myself.
I have good relationships with all three of my children in no small amount because I have learnt how to transform this one with my mother and where to take responsibility and where to let go of expectations.
So now I can (mostly) take criticism from my children and others with equanimity and grace - knowing that it is more about them learning to be adults than me being wrong.
Although these days I am learning to take good advice or opportunities to learn, when it comes in the form of harsh feedback or triggering conversations. Even though it feels painful at the time.
Stay curious and know you are only human after all - as Rag and Bone Man says…
I do think it is a little bit dismissive to counter Andy’s point about emotional abuse with: “we are all flawed human beings”. Yes we are, but I often feel that those on the receiving end of abuse will never be validated in their experiences because people just want to smooth over the cracks and not deal with difficult things. Yes, we are all flawed human beings and people who abuse others have obviously been through difficult stuff themselves and don’t know how to behave in the world, but we have an epidemic of abusive behaviour and acts towards children in this world and I don’t think people’s experiences should be minimised in this way. Multiple things can be true at once.
Andy, I agree. I always feel those like you and I that have been abused have to spend so much time and energy dealing with it. First is the abuse. Then the work of trying to heal from the abuse. Then knowing often, you will never receive the acknowledgement nor apology. And having to do the heavy lifting of accepting this. Having to hold the empathy for the abuser whilst maintaining dignity, strength for oneself. It is work that takes up time and somehow we have to do it and I feel we create more time to do this. So this time doesn’t eat into just living. The act of cutting someone off to me isn’t just about self protection, it’s also about time. Which maybe is about self protection. To be constantly gaslighted isn’t just painful it gets to a point (for me) where it’s just time wasting. I have empathy and know abusers were abused, but at some point - you put yourself first.
Yes! This is perfectly put. My life isn’t all daisies since I (after many years of reflection) reached a head with one of the main people who was like this, and took my distance from her. I have much more clarity, time, and life force and energy to devote to useful things, since I’m not spending my precious time here on earth trying to forgive and understand whatever latest awful comment. Twisting myself up into pretzels to try to “move on” and hobble weirdly forward (as I was urged to for 25 years, while no one wanted to address the origin issue: her spite). Now I have much more time, much more of a life, even if I feel guilty. When someone never apologies or reflects, what are we supposed to do? Also, relatedly, while I can be a little annoying to my friends these days, I am not overbearing with them the way I was for years, while navigating that other relationship . I brought this complaining, childlike energy and anger to my friends when trying to complete an impossible jigsaw puzzle. I lost some friends that way — they got tired — and I don’t blame them at all! I now I don’t have to strain or lose precious friendships, because there’s no one regularly abusive in my life. That’s a huge gift, too.
I hear you. I am old now and my mother died 18 months ago. I never cut her off, nor my father, who died in 2006. Spent months with my grandmother in infancy. Returned to my parents and confused the au pair with my mother. My fault - me ‘making a point’. Run over at 7 on a family picnic by the side of a main road. My fault - for being a ‘dreamboat’. Two anorexia-related psychotic illnesses at 18 and at 22. My fault - (see above ‘dreamboat’) + ‘not being honest’ with myself. Bowel cancer in 2021 - my fault for eating too much bbq food. My mother sent flowers, but never visited or phoned. When I nearly died after cancer surgery in 2023 my brother brought her to see me in hospital (a 2 hour drive) she spent 15 minutes with me. Her verdict afterwards was how upsetting it had been (for her) to witness me so unwell. . I have two brothers, with whom I maintain a relationship at some personal cost. They cannot (bear to) accept ‘my’ truth about our parents, which makes our relationship feel inauthentic to me, but I still very much want their love and sanctioning of me as a human being. They are close to each other, which hurts. I have 3 children and a husband. I am on loving terms with all of them, although my poor relationship with myself is most often the cause of issues with the children and sometimes with my husband. My ‘self-relationship’ has improved since my cancer, but for decades I believed myself worthless and that has impacted what I might have experienced/achieved if I’d had fewer deeply held self-doubts. Looking back now, perhaps I should have cut myself off from my family of origin? We all muddle through, I guess. I don’t know if it’s more important to preserve self-image and blame others in order to achieve a sense of affirmation/self-trust, or if we should accept responsibility for relationships and the crushing self doubt that that can cause. (Ironically, both blaming others, and crushing self doubt cause emotional damage to those we most care about. In my experience, anyway.)
I'm sorry you've had to go through all that.
I don't think it's ever easy to decide whether to go 'no contact' or not. I think my decision to do so was probably made easier because I'm in contact with my biological family.
For me it's not about blame because their parents were obviously awful too and the buck never stops. It's about validation - simple recognition that I experienced things very differently. When that's refused you're right that all that's left is an inauthentic relationship. In my case, my father refuses to see me as the person that I am. I have a son so it's easy for me to see how cruel and absurd this is.
Do your brothers notice their hypocrisy of not accepting your truth but expecting you to accept theirs? They sound just like my Dad.
I’m so sorry little you and big You had to experience that.
Sad that so often love and acceptance are conditional with adoptive parents. I think estrangement is particularly common in our community as we start to question the accepted truths, and become more critical of the act of adoption. Best of luck 👍🏻
I have so much empathy for you. My daughter cut me out of her life after an argument 4 years ago. I rarely lose my temper and I think this came as a shock to her. All of my attempts to talk/ reconcile have been ignored. My other daughter gave me my estranged daughter's new address, I sent a birthday card and said I loved her very much, apologised for any hurt I caused and asked if we could talk. I heard nothing and as a consequence, she has also cut contact with her sister. After 4 years I don't know anything about her life now. It is a harsh punishment, which as Phillipa says, seems to have become a 'fashion'. The grief comes in waves, especially around birthdays and Christmas. I have learned to focus my love around my other daughter and her brother, who has learning difficulties. I spend lovely times with them and my bond has become stronger. I also volunteer, which has built up my self worth, and has made me realise I am not the awful person outlined in my daughter's email to me. Yes, I have made mistakes, but fundamentally I have loved my children and tried my best. Hold on to your self worth, build on your relationship with your son and friends. Look after yourself x
"Fundamentally I have loved my children and tried my best but I have made mistakes"
I think we need to put it that way round more often. It opens up the conversation (even with ourselves) instead of closing it down.
This response is to Phillipa really, because I was genuinely quite shocked to read your response today. You say that the writer doesn’t know what they have done to cause this and that that is the hardest part. You also say that children choosing to cut ties with their parents never used to happen so often but it does far more now and you blame social media and all or nothing thinking.
I want to offer my perspective as someone who felt the need to cut ties with one of their own parents.
It is one of the most painful things i have ever done. It has not ever, ever, ever been what I wanted for myself or for my dad, for us to not be in contact. I haven’t seen him in years . I have felt guilt and major anxiety about the ramifications of it including going through a phase of being terrified he would harm himself. But it was absolutely the right thing for me. What I’m trying to say is that people don’t just do this because of social media or for no reason or without great thought and without it being a last resort. You are aware, I’m sure, about how strong the parental bond is and the hold it can have over us, is. There are power dynamics even in adulthoood. not easy to break.
In the email the writer here says their daughter called them fat-phobic, racist, homophobic and transphobic, but in your comment it sounds like you don’t actually take these accusations seriously, or presume these insults /bigoted views were things said in reference to others and not this persons daughter.
To me it sounds very clear why this daughter cut ties - she has told them they are bigoted and clearly that has caused her a lot of pain. It doesn’t sound to me like this parent is wanting to hear this. Or take full responsibility for it. (I sincerely apologise to the writer if i am wrong and I recognise that you may have addressed this in the relational counselling you mentioned)
But I’m genuinely stunned how you(Phillipa) have taken such a strong side with the writer as though they could have done no wrong. Being on the receiving end of comments about your body from a parent for example, can do so much damage and perhaps she’s not willing to put up with that any more but the parent simply will not hear her or respect her wishes. We all have limits of what we can tolerate before our mental wellbeing starts to suffer. And with parents there can be decades of baggage and pain there.
I told my dad explicitly clearly and painstakingly the ways he had hurt me and what I needed to be different if we were to embark on building a relationship again. Conveniently he still tells me he doesn’t know what I want from him and invites me to tell him again. As if I haven’t spent years doing so already in emails and letters. I have had to stop repeating myself now to end this cycle, of not being heard. he has all the information in writing should he ever choose to start listening. and it is the best thing for me, and it is my therapist who has helped me to realise that, not tiktok!
My advice to this parent - would be to hear her and take responsibility for those times you could have done better whether you agree with everything she sees in you or not. No matter how hurt you feel at this rejection, your child is deeply hurt too. You need to be the parent and step up and make this about her not you. Even though it is hard. She accepted your apology after all, it was only when you back-tracked on it that she withdrew. Is that not understandable? She needed that apology but you took it away. There is something that hasn’t been addressed here.
Phillipa, just because estrangement is more common doesn’t mean it’s always the child being immature. This topic often seems to be discussed in a condescending way. I can hear my dad reading the stats and adding it to his fairy tale list of reasons why i’m not in touch and telling it to others, blaming it on my generation, all whilst refusing to accept the one real reason he has in writing.
With Respect,
H
I didn't make any comments towards my daughter about the things listed. They just arrived in a whole heap. I thought we had healthy discussions about changing cultural landscapes but I do tend to ask a lot of questions so I can 'get it' and understand, that didn't seem to go so well. The fat person is my cousin who's health I expressed great concern for and whom is suffering the terrible consequences of this. My kids had a male gay baby sitter for quite few years. I'm a late baby boomer of 64 and she is almost 35. I can only tell you my side 'cos I don't know her side apart from what I have listed.
It's tough to take a lot of these comments but I'm taking them on the chin. I've been in a dark place and I truly think if I hadn't wanted to burden anyone to care for my dog I'd not be here to send this reply. I still have to live with the notion that I may never see this wonderful person ever again.
I’m really glad you’re here. Though I stand by what I said, my apologies if my comment was a little passionate, I really hope things work out for you and with your daughter
So agree with you, very well put 👍🏻
This seems to be a case where the writer's friends' suggestions may not have served her well (or she took their love and support to be a call to action at any rate) by, as it would have seemed, going back on her apology, adding insincerity to her rap sheet.
-Ist and -phobe words are very triggering to those of us who like to think of themselves as a good, 'nice' person. Especially cis white females. It does hurt and it can be grotesquely unfair but oh the fragility! It can have the heart breaking effect of becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy, radicalising them. Rather than being a "Yikes! Is that how it comes across?" moment. You don't have to end up agreeing that's how it *is* and the labelling doesn't always come from a place of principle.
I note that there are no actual examples of things said or done and I find that telling, whether it is the daughter just slapping on the distancing labels (perhaps as a way of making space when her mother has felt overbearingly close), or the writer being careful to avoid us forming our own judgments that she had indeed done or said something rather awful. (I note that the reaction is all about mental health support for the distress rather than what might be termed 'doing the work' around those alleged -isms and -phobias)
Philippa's suggestion focussing on the relationship she does have with her son is vital. I wonder how he would feel if he read this letter?
I note there is no mention of what has happened to the other parent, which might be relevant. I wonder too if the emotional impact of being 'seriously ill' has been transferred onto the daughter's failings/hardheartedness/judgment/estrangement. (How did the daughter know the mother was seriously ill if they were estranged - there's no detail there) I think it is fine to have a good old 'poor me' whine, which this absolutely is: sometimes that's what you need to feel safe enough to do what might need to be done (whether that's acceptance or action) and it's the letter writer's problem after all and she is writing a letter to a 3rd party about her situation, not in family therapy or direct communication with her daughter.
It could be that this is fundamentally about the daughter's own issues (perhaps *her* friends pushed her this way, perhaps she is a big ruminator who cannot let go of what seem like small things to others and overgeneralises, perhaps she struggles to cope with acceptance of her mother as a real person, warts and all, perhaps it was the struggles of 'growing up' (which can hit late) or the pandemic) Perhaps the letter writer could sit tight, make herself a good life where she is now (what does she like to do?), not 'make things weird' with her son (thinking about what *he* might find uncomfortable not what she believes is perfectly reasonable to say/ask), and maybe there will be a rapprochement in time... sometimes people appreciate parents more when they become parents themselves for example. Even if there is, there is likely to be sadness about the lost time, so learning to sit with the sadness, whatever happens will be important, honouring the loss without letting it spill over and poison the good things she has.
This cannot be about 'making the daughter do the right thing' or 'being the innocent victim' or even 'I've been a terrible mother'
I am so sorry. I am so scared. I am going through the start of this now with my 18 year old son. The pain is unbearable. There is no way to make sense of it. It’s like all my worst recurring nightmares. I hope I manage to do the good things the OP has to keep going for my younger son who doesn’t understand what’s going on either. I want to find a way of stopping the train which is building speed, but can’t. Philippa’s advice to focus on what you do have is sage of course but it’s also completely heartbreaking to live with a living loss that you don’t understand. My heart goes out to the OP and everyone else in this impossibly cruel situation.
This sounds agonising but I don’t think you should give up. Ask your son to deliver her a letter from you this Xmas. Just say you think of her every day and would do anything to make amends and see her again. Forget who did what. Just focus on the best way to see her again. Keep showing up however you can to reinforce your love for her. Write each birthday & Xmas. Then work on acceptance of the situation so that you’re not fighting within yourself. This should bring you more peace while in the background you have hope of a reconciliation. Take up volunteering for a good cause, perhaps something related to children. This should help you feel purposeful. I wish you all the best.
I wholeheartedly disagree. If someone doesn't want you to contact them, respect that. It's obvious how the daughter feels, her sister broke her trust so she had to cut off the sister as well. Telling the writer to "get the brother" to contact his sister will only make things worse. Trying to force contact will only make things worse. Leave her alone to live her life and don't involve others.
To the people saying ‘it’s a fashion’ , I don’t think it is, people could emigrate or even just move a few towns away and virtually vanish. Even when I was a teen it was easier to go ‘no-contact lite’, essentially no-contact but pretending we hadn’t as we could send a maintenance postcard or similar, not having mobiles and not necessarily having a landline if you were living an ‘alternative lifestyle’ as I was. We have such different transport and communication links now it is an entirely different thing.
I’ve been agony aunting for 15 years and it’s been in the last 18 months it seems to have gone mad. Apparently 1 in 4 American adults are no contact with a parent now.
Speaking as a 40yo mother of two young kids and no contact with my mother - I would say that life for 'children' is becoming increasingly complex and challenging. I can see how intergenerational relationships are becoming strained. On the whole, I don't believe the post WW generation are emotionally equipped to engage with millennials and younger. This is reductionist, but as an example - my mother disapproves of my husband on the basis he is carribean. She voted for brexit and doesn't really 'get' climate change. Conversely, my generation are doing everything we can (on the whole) to ensure some form of, at the very least, stability for our children whilst wellbeing and quality of life is poor. Put simply - we are immensly stretched and terrified. Please - parents. Understand, we are terrified. Treat us like bone China. Hold us. Educate yourselves. Sooth our nervous systems. Listen. Judge us? Do anything other? Our cup is full and you will not be at the table.
And given the history of trauma and appalling parenting in our culture, it is highly likely that at least 25% of adult children of the first generation to have access to therapeutic support have good reason for their stance. For example, consider the initial ACE study that indicated that 22% of respondents had experienced CSA, and that is before considering any other form of damage. It may well be very painful to be in the first generation to be held to account for the dreadful patterns that they inherited. It may also be hard to step up and face the challenges that arise as a consequence. But every parent has a choice to do so or not.
That is a lot! And I hate to follow trends so it encourages me to get back in touch with mine 🥴
Some theories:
1. It’s people attaching to online groups more than to IRL relationships, and particularly because that’s how we socialised in the pandemic.
2. We all practised “going no contact” in person in the lockdowns. I think what we did was necessary but there hasn’t been nearly enough conversation about the psychological impacts. We normalised instant cut-offs for young people.
3. I genuinely wonder whether some of it is the AI telling people to do this too. There’s horrible stuff about it telling children not to let parents know about their suicidal ideation.
All contributing factors I’d guess
From what I hear from mums of teens there is definitely a ‘fashion’ for going no contact with parents going round on TikTok etc, even when you are still living in their home, they are clothing you got school, putting food in your bellies etc etc. In my opinion any person or movement who tries to separate a child from their parent should be viewed with deep suspicion.
I agree and talk of 'fashion' and 'wokism' can easily come across as disrespectful and adult and 'becoming adult' offspring really want to feel respected.
I am sorry for your heartbreak and I can only imagine how painful being denied the relationship you are hoping for must feel. I’m reading that you cannot relate to the accusations your daughter has made, and the profound impact that the estrangement has had on you, and I’m wondering if these labels that your daughter has assigned as justification for going no-contact are unrelatable because they cast harsh judgements, but don’t tell you how your daughter is feeling, in a way that allows you to feel empathy for? This may not be the end, and there may be practical solutions in time that could help you gradually establish contact again, but in the meantime, could it be helpful to try to cultivate some understanding for what may have been going on for your daughter during the years when she described the relationship as breaking down? Could this feel like you are keeping her in mind, and working on your relationship in the absence of actual contact, also putting you in a better position to be open to understanding her, and your relationship, if she is in agreement to contact again in the future?